Seth Godin Deconstructs Marketing BS

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  1

  upshift

  02/01/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Seth Godin Deconstructs Marketing BS

  From my point of view, Marketing has two
  responsibilities.
  Producing effective leads, for B2B markets,
  (mainly B2B since it would be obviously
  impossible to contact each potential consumer
  on a one-one basis), and at the same time
  produce and execute effective marketing
  messages.
  If Consumer spending accounts for 60% of the
  GDP then Marketing's importance and potential
  is far greater than that of the sales function.
  
  Arguably the right product, or service, with
  the right message using the right media is far
  more effective than a well trained sales force.

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  2

  ptiseo

  02/02/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Seth Godin Deconstructs Marketing BS

  
  Well, IMO, I would think that Mr. Godin generally wouldn't agree with you. So, your "appeal to authority" debate tactic kinda falls flat for me.
  
  You tend to poo-poo ALL marketing. From my understanding of the presentation, Seth is of the opinion that some types of marketing is a waste of money in some scenarios.
  
  Secondly, lots of groups/depts waste money. My friend worked for a company that threw a tacky, extravagant Super Bowl party (not this year), complete with REAL TURF in a hotel ballroom. Sales created that nightmare of an expenditure. IT will often waste money on project they honestly think will work, but solve a problem that doesn't exist. Marketing is not alone, and I still don't see why the chip is so firmly lodged in your shoulder.
  
  I do think that the separation of marketing and sales, being so inherently intertwined, does cause the friction you live.
  
  Small companies cannot compete with big ones on the big company's turf. They have to find different ways to get noticed. This is where Seth's ideas shine. It isn't particularly "remarkable", although he "markets" it well, but guerilla marketing has been around for a while.
  
  Coke still needs to broad-stroke the market, if only to reinforce their base and keep those fans buying.

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  3

  Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

  02/02/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Seth Godin Deconstructs Marketing BS

  Quote from alphadogg: Well, IMO, I would think that Mr. Godin generally wouldn't agree with you [because] you tend to poo-poo ALL marketing.
  
  Well, I agree that he wouldn't agree with your completely incorrect characterization of my viewpoint. As for my actual viewpoint, I think Seth and I very much aligned on the most important issue: that most advertising and promotion has become a form of SPAM that's expensive and ineffective.
  
  As for the notion that I pooh-pooh all marketing, you might want to read my post more carefully. What I'm against is marketing activity that can't be measured, or which is self-measured by marketing's own skewed yardsticks. I'm in favor of all kinds of direct marketing and Internet marketing because they can be tracked and measured in terms of their ability to generate leads. And I'm in favor of other demand creation methodologies, providing they're objectively measured in a way that reflect real business value.
  
  Most of what passes for "marketing" is unmeasurable and unmeasured and therefore it's not so much a matter of whether I'm pooh-poohing it or not, but simply that the marketing itself is, well, pooh.

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  ptiseo

  02/02/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Seth Godin Deconstructs Marketing BS

  If that is your point, you sure don't make it very well.
  
  I think you come across as hating all forms of marketing. What's the point of continuously digging up examples of bad marketing? I can dig up cases of bad anything in any group.
  
  How many "here's good marketing" posts have you done? Seriously. How many?
  
  (Here's where you make some sarcastic joke about how hard they are to find... which, of course, reinforces my point. So, go ahead...)
  
  I'm sure you'll disagree with me and think your point is being made as imminently clearly as Seth, and I must be an idiot for not seeing it.
  
  I wonder how your readership sees it? Poll, anyone?

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  hshahin

  02/02/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Seth Godin Deconstructs Marketing BS

  My understanding of Seth's presentation is:
  1. Your product has to be remarkable. This is a condition that has to be met for the next step to work.
  2. Find a way to spread your product/idea.
  3. If 1+2 is accomplished then you will succeed.
  4. Otherwise, we'll have different scenarios:
  a. You product/idea is not remarkable, and your "way of presenting and spreading it" is not remarkable. In such a case, you are dead.
  b. Your product/idea is remarkable but your "way of presenting and spreading it" is not remarkable. In such a case...hmmm, you might need more time to succeed, or you may die, or get limited success.
  c. Your product is not remarkable, but your "way of presenting and spreading it" is remarkable, and in such a case you may get some success (on the short term). With time you may encounter some failures, or your profits will become less. But what will happen if you keep repeating this pattern?

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  6

  chenarde

  02/03/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Seth Godin Deconstructs Marketing BS

  I'm in marketing, we measure everything we can and admit when we can't measure something. When I go in the field I get lectured by the sales people that I can't measure their activities that sales activities can't be measured. Same with IT, sourcing, quality, etc... Everyone has stuff that can't be measured, which in most cases is code for, they don't want it measured because they know they can't justify it. As another said, get over it on marketing and look at the whole organization.

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  I'mSpartacus

  02/03/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Seth Godin Deconstructs Marketing BS

  Let's not get confused. Branding is not marketing. Marketing is about generating leads or sales. Whereas, branding is about blowing smoke up peoples assumptions about a product, service, organization, or individual.
  Coke doesn't try to generate measurable sales with their branding. Just like I don't try to brand my product with a catchphrase such as Coke's "Enjoy". After all, I'm marketing an antibacterial tinea/fungus spray - it just wouldn't work. Simply, I market my spray as the most effective (in fact it is instant) method of curing your problem. You wouldn't know the name of my spray, but the people who use it become my best form of branding - 'word of mouth'.

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  SteveRider

  02/03/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Seth Godin Deconstructs Marketing BS

  Seth Godin is right, there is too much noise in the market to be noticed. If you want to be noticed appeal to people that have passion for what you deliver. But he's not original on this point - read Malcolm Gladwell's Tipping Point to get a better understanding of this phenomenon.
  
  He also says, "Find out what people want and give it to them". He's not original on this either. That is the fundamental definition of marketing. Want an explanation, read Philip Kotler. He literally wrote the book on the subject of marketing. Kotler also says, the role of marketing is to make the selling process superfluous. It's all about making it easier to generate profits for the enterprise.
  
  So how does this apply to branding?
  
  I agree that most branding campaigns are misguided wastes of money generated by marketing executives that want something visible to show to other marketing directors. People need to think of their brand as their reputation. Like a reputation it is built over time by continued interaction with your consumers. Instead of spending gobs of money on a brand campaign, most marketing executives should spend that in solid market validation activities and identification of customer needs.

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  ennyman

  02/04/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Seth Godin Deconstructs Marketing BS

  I agree with Chenarde...
  and I also agree with Mr James when he says we need to Measure everything, and admit when we can't. So, it is an honesty issue.
  I agree with alphadogg when he says there is a lot of waste going on in other areas besides mktg.
  
  Years ago at a seminar on advertising and literature development I heard someone say thet 90% of all mistakes occur before hand touches paper (or fingers touch keyboard or mouse)... Same holds true with a lot of company activities today as well. Tight times are a good time to re-set priorities in every department, from inventory management to IT to new product development.
  Another

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  10

  ennyman

  02/04/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Seth Godin Deconstructs Marketing BS

  I agree with Chenarde...
  and I also agree with Mr James when he says we need to Measure everything, and admit when we can't. So, it is an honesty issue.
  I agree with alphadogg when he says there is a lot of waste going on in other areas besides mktg.
  
  Years ago at a seminar on advertising and literature development I heard someone say thet 90% of all mistakes occur before hand touches paper (or fingers touch keyboard or mouse)... Same holds true with a lot of company activities today as well. Tight times are a good time to re-set priorities in every department, from inventory management to IT to new product development.
  Another good

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  malcolm@...

  02/04/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Seth Godin Deconstructs Marketing BS

  I agree with Seth, not Geoff. He's trying to bend Seth's talk to say that all marketing is bad. 2 points:
  
  1. Marketing (and branding) is the management of differences, looking for the "remarkable" parts that will resonate with customers that others can't claim.
  
  2. Marketing is focused on the spreading of ideas, with an eye for efficiency (how many prospects can we alert to our "remarkable-ness" for the lowest cost). And while many (if not most) marketing activities can improve their efficiency, sales is focused on making a transaction (one at a time in most B2B scenarios) and not efficient in the spreading of ideas.
  
  Bottom line that seems lost on this author is that marketing sets the expectation (branding), highlights the remarkable (positioning/differentiation) and gets prospects to want more (lead generation) -- thereby setting the sales team up to close the deal.
  
  It's teamwork, the two need each other for success. Can't we all just get along?

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  Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

  02/04/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Seth Godin Deconstructs Marketing BS

  Quote form malcom: Marketing is...
  
  This entire comment defines marketing as a series of unmeasurable nonsense. Even if these airy-fairy deliverables were measurable, unless a marketing exec has sales experience, he or she has no idea what might be a compelling differentiator in a sales situation. Selling is like sex; if you haven't done it, you don't know anything about it.
  
  Most of the time, Marketing thinks some obscure product feature that's going to compel customers to buy...even though most customers don't give a rat's behind about product features.
  
  In any case, I'm getting tired of this accusation that I think all marketing is bad. I've never said that. What I've said is a LOT marketing is wasted money and that marketing needs to be measured and compensated on their ability to generate qualified lead which the sales team can quickly and easily convert into customers. The people who argue against this are just repeating the same mush-minded B-school dren that's let marketing run hog-wild with the cost of sales for the past three decades.
  
  Enough is enough, people. If your marketing group isn't willing to be measured, quantitatively and objectively, on something that actually contributes to the speed of the sales process, everyone in the department, from the CMO down, should get their walking papers this afternoon. Period.

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  13

  Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

  02/04/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Seth Godin Deconstructs Marketing BS

  Closing off the persistent italics from the post above. I hate this editing program.

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  manifestyourdestiny

  02/04/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Seth Godin Deconstructs Marketing BS

  Wow, Geoffrey, your animosity toward marketing is palpable. As a marketing generalist who has worked in branding, advertising, direct and online, as well as managed sales teams, I'm trying to stay objective and hear your message, but it's hard not to get my back up when you make statements like:
  
  - "unless a marketing exec has sales experience, he or she has no idea what might be a compelling differentiator in a sales situation" - Where is the customer in all of this? Both the marketer's and the salesperson's key role is to understand and address what matters to the customer. Good marketing doesn't require sales experience, it requires true insight into the customer. The problem with much of today's "brand marketing" is that it's not based on customer insight, but on the egos, whims and assumptions of the brand managers/marketers. That's why measurement is so scary. But no, you don't have to have sales experience to be a good marketer.
  
  - "Marketing needs to be measured and compensated on their ability to generate qualified leads which the sales team can quickly and easily convert into customers" - Seriously? Where is the salesperson's accountability in that?? The implication is that all salespeople are equally great (which makes none of them great, really), so if they can't close the leads I supply, it's my fault as the marketer and I should get compensated accordingly. Now, I could go on and on about how "most" salespeople don't know a good lead from a Chinese cookie fortune, or can't close their mothers on a free lunch, but that would be generalizing.
  
  

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  Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

  02/04/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Seth Godin Deconstructs Marketing BS

  Quote from manifestyour... Where is the salesperson's accountability in that??...I could go on and on about how "most" salespeople don't know a good lead from a Chinese cookie fortune
  
  Uhhh, it's called a commission. Ever hear of it? Sales reps who can't do their job - develop customer relationships and close deals - don't eat. Marketeers, by contrast, often stay employed forever, even when they contribute nothing measurable.

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  16

  manifestyourdestiny

  02/12/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Seth Godin Deconstructs Marketing BS

  No need to be condescending. My point is, you say that marketers should be judged on their ability to generate leads that the salesperson can "quickly and easily" close. The implication is that, if the salesperson can't close it, it's a bad lead and the marketer shouldn't get credit for it. That's simply faulty logic.

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  Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

  02/12/09 | Report as spam

  RE: Seth Godin Deconstructs Marketing BS

  Quote from manifestyoude...: That's simply faulty logic.
  
  No, it's not. If an average sales rep in your firm can't close a certain type of lead, it doesn't matter if some other sales rep (maybe with jedi mind powers) could close the lead. A good lead, by definition, is one that has the possibility of closing, given the sales team that is already in place.