That Blogger Thinks You're Stupid

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  1

  Sid Herron

  12/10/08 | Report as spam

  RE: That Blogger Thinks You're Stupid

  Well, after reading Mr. Tobak's post, I certainly agree with him that a lot of people who don't know squat about marketing seem to think they're marketing geniuses. Unfortunately, that includes a lot of marketing professonals.

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  2

  dave.stein@...

  12/10/08 | Report as spam

  RE: That Blogger Thinks You're Stupid

  Many sales departments of companies, large and small, across most sectors have had and continue to have problems selling their products and services. Today, research from multiple, reliable sources point to a common set of causes including insufficient discipline and process, ineffective training and reinforcement (coaching), ineffective hiring, lack of measurement, etc. There is plenty of opportunity for sales leaders to fix what is broken, or to build what doesn't exist, within their own departments.
  
  With that being said, I'm strongly in your corner on this, Geoffrey: Salespeople are hardly unsuspecting. They are the ones who pay the biggest price for the misdeeds, misdirection and sheer incompetence that afflicts too many marketing organizations.
  
  Sales people need products and services that satisfy customer needs. They need their markets segmented and well defined. They need a current understanding of the competitive landscape and how to position their offering in that environment. They need to understand the value of their products and services to the different constituencies within their customer organizations. They need qualified sales leads. They need sales tools like demos, ROI calculators and product and corporate presentations. They need positive analyst reports about them. They need market intelligence. They need reference lists. They need a strong web presence. They need name recognition in industry associations. The list of what some marketing organizations don't get done goes on...
  
  Does anyone really think that salespeople don't know when their own marketing department isn't delivering for them? We salespeople know BS from the truth, especially when it originates from the marketing department down the hall.

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  3

  Steve Tobak

  12/10/08 | Report as spam

  RE: That Blogger Thinks You're Stupid

  You said: "Marketeers (who???ve never designed a product) tell engineers what to design. Marketeers (who???ve never run a company) tell CEOs where to take their company. And most irritatingly, marketeers (who???ve never sold anything) tell sales pros how to sell."
  
  If that's the business world you come from, I can see why you feel the way you do. I would too.
  
  First, as I've said before and in my post, my experience is not just running marketing. I've designed products, run a company, and sold. And as a marketer, I never told an engineer what to design, a CEO where to take the company, or salespeople how to sell. In the business world I come from, engineering, marketing, sales, and yes, even the CEO, work together toward common goals. Frankly, I don't understand your world.
  
  Steve Tobak

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  4

  Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

  12/11/08 | Report as spam

  RE: That Blogger Thinks You're Stupid

  Quote: Frankly, I don't understand your world.
  
  Start reading Dilbert regularly. It will reveal the nature of the real world of business in a way that your apparently idyllic experience has not.

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  5

  Steve Tobak

  12/11/08 | Report as spam

  RE: That Blogger Thinks You're Stupid

  Wow, did you actually say that the real corporate world (where I worked for 23 years, 10 as a senior executive, for Texas Instruments, Cyrix, National Semiconductor and Rambus, etc.) is idyllic and the Dilbert cartoon is real?
  
  Not sure how to respond to that, but I'll try.
  
  Let's see: I've actually read Scott Adams, have two of his books on my bookshelf. I don't know how to tell you this Geoffrey, but it's fictional satire, like The Office on TV. It isn't real.
  
  Now, exactly how many years did you spend working in the real world? You know, the one you're supposed to be writing about? Please enlighten us.
  
  Thanks for sharing; it explains a lot. I would have kept that sort of "wisdcom" to myself, but that's just me.
  
  Steve Tobak

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  6

  may08

  12/11/08 | Report as spam

  RE: That Blogger Thinks You're Stupid

  Probably this post is the best evidence that if marketing and sales do not start seeing eye-to-eye, dropping the bravado and turf wars (among other turf wars) companies will not find success - period.
  
  One company I worked for was somewhat idyllic - although I'm not sure any really are. I agree, Dilbert pops up here and there at all companies. But this company got it as "right" as one could.
  
  Going from #5 in a dinosaur market to #1 in less than two years, and eventually being sold for 150x what it was making in revenue only 2 years ealier. Yes - 150 times - not a typo.
  
  So - they got it right and continue to. Needless to say I keep wondering if the fact that Marketing, Engineering and Sales all reported into the SAME person made for one of the critical differences.
  
  I recognize that most individuals could not span all these roles successfully. But this person could. He had vision, charisma, sales ability, shook customer hands, brain stormed with the "skunk works" in technical detail, and truly performed each role unbelievably well.
  
  I would put his performance up against anyone overseeing a single area such as engineering. The results were equally amazing. Products that were easy to sell, that met customer expectations, and were easy to make and service, with clear long term upgrade strategies - and most of all MADE MONEY.
  
  For me I think until we figure out how to collaborate as individual VP's of x, y, or z, CEO's might consider consolidation of these roles into those super heros who might be able to actually perform better than 3 separate individuals would.
  
  Of course my example EngiMarketSalesMan didn't do it alone (he had direct reports) - but his ability to see across the silos made a world of impact to a nearly dead dinosaur of a business.

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  7

  may08

  12/11/08 | Report as spam

  RE: That Blogger Thinks You're Stupid

  Oh - and just to clarify, it wasn't 150 times $2.
  
  They ended up at $1.5b the last year I was with them.

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  8

  Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

  12/11/08 | Report as spam

  RE: That Blogger Thinks You're Stupid

  Quote from Steve Tobak: I don't know how to tell you this Geoffrey, but it's fictional satire, like The Office on TV. It isn't real.
  
  
  
  The reason that Dilbert and The Office ring true is that satire exaggerates reality. As such, it allows us to see that reality more clearly than, say, the idealized version of reality that's filtered through the green-colored glasses of management consultants.
  
  
  
  In any case, you've come up with a GREAT idea for a blog poll. I'll bet that most people think Dilbert reflects the reality of their day-to-day business life much more accurately than what's depicted in most business books. I'll run a poll next week and we'll see what spins out.
  
  
  
  As for myself, I have 18 years of experience in engineering, marketing and sales in Fortune 100 firms, and an additional 15 years experience as an industry analyst and business reporter, where I've interacted with and analyzed the performance of thousands of top executives from hundreds of different companies.
  
  
  
  So I think I know the score pretty well. And MY experience and observation, collected over many years, tells me that branding is mostly BS. Your experience apparently leads you to a different conclusion.

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  9

  John Garrett

  12/11/08 | Report as spam

  RE: That Blogger Thinks You're Stupid

  Wow. This kind of sparring is usually saved for business or religion. I like you two cats, just going at it.
  
  For what its worth, I think it brings validity to BNET as a whole. I mostly disagreed with Steve when I read his blog the other day, but didn't feel like getting yelled at by the marketers cramming their virtual heads up his rear.
  
  I will chime in on this point, from a Small Business stand point, no one could convince me that Internet Marketing isn't your first priority, well, after having a site that is functional and sharp.
  
  The ROI is track-able and the investment plans are scalable. I know of a local business we are looking to help that spends $10,000 a month on radio, driving business to his website.
  
  To this day, he has no tracking on his site and can only account for a sale or two that mentioned the radio ad's.
  
  On the contrary, a strong Web Marketing campaign and website can show consistent returns over time. This is job one for a small business.
  
  Its also to talk about marketing from a idiosyncratic stand point. It doesn't mean the same thing all the time. For small businesses it isn't about brand recognition in a traditional sense. Its more about the brand being recognized as a viable and trust worthy option than it is about which dealership pops in your head first.
  
  Finally, this is why sales people cry foul against marketers. There is no score being kept for the marketers and sales people deal with it every day, week, month year.
  
  Then again, your average sales rep makings quite a bit more than your average marketer.

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  John Garrett

  12/11/08 | Report as spam

  RE: That Blogger Thinks You're Stupid

  FYI, meant to say Politics or Religion.

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  11

  boydroge

  12/11/08 | Report as spam

  RE: That Blogger Thinks You're Stupid

  Gees, you guys got grazes on you low hanging knuckles or what? Everyone is very good at throwing rocks over the wall at each other, mainly because that's easy & doesn't actually require too much thought other than, "what can I moan about today".
  
  Here's the thing. Most of the world has grown up trying to blame someone else. Because that way you don't get into trouble, & you feel a bit better about yourself to boot. It's endemic, but it continues, & continues, because bone heads like yourselves still act like their in the play ground & there is a hell of a lot of willing lemmings out there. What about solutions to the issues marketers face of everyone having an opinion, what about solutions to the sales & marketing wedge?
  
  Geoffery, when you talk about B2B sales you actually sound like you know a thing or two, which l like to listen to. When you talk about "marketing" you sound like a bit of a twit because you haven't managed to quite incorporate a pretty important rule of sales AND marketing into your blog, which is make sure your customer is clear what you're about. "Sales Machine" doesn't say anything about being about B2B sales & hence people who chime in often talk over top of each other because they are indeed talking about B2Cosumer instead of B2B experience. So please, please (for everyone's sake) change your name to B2B Sales Machine or something of the the like, so the readers can get on with reading what they really want to focus on, &/or put it into context.
  
  As for Steve, **** man, check your facts. How can you say someone hasn't got a clue, when you haven't got a clue about who you're writing about & you blog for the same blog!? What other facts don't you check? I'm sure your not "cluless", but you sure as hell are trying to get perceived that way.
  
  So there it is, 2 solutions, for 2 knuckle dragging, rock throwing bone heads, who would rather not look at themselves first & come up with solutions for us all to prosper from (actually that's a bit harsh, I've seen some good things in the past, just thought I'd call you on this one), given by someone who definately doesn't have there 30+ years of experience (chest thump) but knows that ignorance often gets worse with age...(ouch).
  
  Then again I'm not convinced you 2 aren't in "cahoots" because you know people love the drama.
  
  later skaters...

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  12

  boydroge

  12/11/08 | Report as spam

  RE: That Blogger Thinks You're Stupid

  their, dam it