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Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

October 15th, 2008 @ 10:00 am

30 Comments

Categories: Management, Marketing, Rant, Sales Process, Watercooler

Tags: Brand, REAL Marketing, Branding, Sales Strategy, Marketing Research, Marketing, Sales, Geoffrey James

Burning Money on MarketingIn yesterday’s post “A Branding Strategy Horror Story” I gave an example of a completely pointless branding exercise.  As I fully expected, a number of marketeers commented that the activities described in the post weren’t really “branding.”  Here’s a representative comment:

“Wow, you clearly do not know what the definition of branding is. A brand is a collection of perceptions in the mind of the consumer. EVERYTHING the brand does makes up that perception - the product itself, the sales team (are they rude or nice), the name, the logo, the price, the packaging, the placement, the promise delivered by advertising. All of these pieces make impressions on the consumer and the sum of these impressions is the brand.”

Actually, I’m quite familiar with this definition of branding… and I think it’s a crock.   It’s a marketing-centric way of looking at business that’s specifically designed to fold everything that happens under the aegis of marketing.

It’s a vision of “branding” that bundles trivial things (mostly controlled by Marketing) with important things (mostly controlled by other groups) and then lets marketing take credit for the whole kaboodle.

The concept of “branding” is, in short, simply a power play that allows Marketing to pretend that they’re “driving” the business.  It’s a concept that channels budget money toward Marketing, where it is usually wasted on egregious nonsense.

For a marketeer, being “responsible” for “branding strategy” means that you don’t have to do any REAL marketing. It means being able to kibitz on everyone else’s job and taking credit for the real work that goes in Sales and Engineering.

More importantly, the concept of “branding” frees Marketing from being measured objectively, because “brand equity” is measured by (guess who!) companies staffed by marketeers who sell their services to the marketing groups who are supposedly being measured.

Now, I don’t think for a minute that marketeers are stupid.  Far from it.  They’re smart.  They know that they’ll have more fun and a faster career path if they use this grandiose notion of “branding” to avoid objective measurement.Because here’s the dirty little secret: REAL marketing is hard work.  It’s not all that fun.

Real marketing consists of two functions: generating quality leads and reducing sales costs.   Every traditional marketing activity, if effective, does one of those two things.

If an advertisement, for example, doesn’t draw in customers (lead generation) or make them more inclined to buy (reduce sales cost), it’s crap.   Same thing with brochures, positioning statements, market research, channel building, product training, etc., etc.

Many marketeers hate that their REAL job consists of generating quality leads and reducing sales cost, because those activities can be measured objectively.  And (unlike doing a re-branding exercise and having it measured by your cronies), you might get fired or demoted if you fail.

In other words, marketeers are driven, by both training and inclination, to conflate what’s good for their career with what’s good for the company.

Armed and empowered with a “branding strategy,” marketeers ALWAYS gravitate towards activities that are fun and expensive.
Here’s an example.  Suppose you had a choice between the two following activities:

  1. Shadowing five sales rep on 20 sales calls to determine which marketing messages are proving effective and which are falling flat.
  2. Making big budget industrial videos on expense account in New York, while hanging out with the hottie interns who work for the ad firm.

Which sounds more fun to you?

Here’s another example.  Suppose you had a choice between the two following activities:

  1. Researching and installing a lead generation application where campaign results can be measured and where failure means a demotion.
  2. Working with the CEO on a management directive to force employees to use the new tag line every time they answer the telephone.

Which do you think give you more chance of advancing up the management chain?

How do I know all of this?  From personal experience.

I’ve worked inside marketing groups.  I’ve jawboned about “brand.”  I drank the kool-aid and ladled it out to top management.  I’ve spent the big bucks.

So I know whereof I speak, even though I’ve since seen the light.

If I could do it all over again, I’d go back to all the sales pros whose time and money I wasted in the past and BEG forgiveness.  Then I’d listen to what they had to say and figure out some ways to make their jobs easier.

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  •  
    1

    venzulo

    10/15/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    This argument all depends on your audience as to how you define branding and even "leads". This is why everyone who commented is doing so from their perspective and you ended up with 2 sides, which I would guess are the B2C people and the B2B people. The Cons were comparing your example to B2C brands like Coke, Dell, IBM, Jet Blue, Southwest, Canon, Disney. As far as I am concerned, ALL of these are improved by branding. As a consumer, I would have never even known about most of these without branding efforts, and on the consumer side there is no sales force reaching out to me to sell me Coke, Disney or otherwise.
    Comparing these to a B2B branding debacle like what CA and many others have done is apples to oranges. In B2B situations, you are spot on with your "idiotic notion that the purpose of a business is to build a brand and sales will follow." I have sold B2B my whole career, with zero branding support, successfully. It is a niche audience at all times, and your livelihood depends on quality products and service. The referral is king in B2B, not some non-sensical ad that shows up during Monday Night Football.
    That said, if I was in the CPG, Auto or Consumer Electronics business, I'd want my brand plastered everywhere my product is available.
    -V

  •  
    2

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    10/15/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    QUOTE: This is why everyone who commented is doing so from their perspective and you ended up with 2 sides, which I would guess are the B2C people and the B2B people.


    Excellent observation. Most of the big problems happen when B2B marketers try to behave like B2C marketers. I don't address B2C as a general rule because they almost never have a direct sales force. Also B2C tends to consist of commodity products which are, frankly, not all that interesting from a selling standpoint.

  •  
    3

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    10/16/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    From a reader in Tanzania:



    Your Article, hit the right place, why do we make life so complicated with those business high business Jargon like Strategy, Positioning, Branding. You have made it so simple.I share you belief and advocating the same in Tanzania, Train you people and Love them. Simple... I would love to use your article in the Local Media and seek your Authority. It just make sense...

  •  
    4

    may08

    10/16/08 | Report as spam

    Flying under the radar

    I believe - and like you have been on both sides of this - that marketing leaders have flown under the radar from an accountability standpoint for too long. Is forever too long - um, yeah.

    It was not until the web came - in my opinion - that some metrics started to come in that actually measured response rates to their efforts. Linking their spend to returned qualified leads - *** for tat.

    This has since expanded, and I've worked hard in my life to make this expand as far into the marketing silo as possible - measuring dollar for dollar what they are REALLY bringing to the table.

    Very little marketing is "just gotta do it" type things. I equate that to operations having to keep the roof from leaking - not a real strategic investment - but a gotta have.

    Marketing has little of that - I suppose we need to name the company, probably have some kind of identity (logo), and issue a few SEC mandated items (annual reports, etc.) here and there. But the vast majority of the marketing spend is by all pretenses - optional for a company.

    Meaning - unless that CEO can see a link directly between the marketing spend on campaign "A" and the exact results from that in the form of converted sales dollars, and from that the profitability of those sales dollars - he is not asking the right questions, or not getting the right answers.

    I used to work at a place that gave marketing 20% of revenue period. Virtually no questions asked. How could they? As those questions likely could not be answered in analytical terms anyway.

    Branding encompassing the entire company may be true - I agree that a customer's brand impression does include all aspects. The fact that marketing solely owns that is completely false. It has to be since marketing can't even control its own spend - let alone that of the entire company.

  •  
    5

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    10/16/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    QUOTE: I used to work at a place that gave marketing 20% of revenue period. Virtually no questions asked. How could they?

    Easy. Once you start thinking that "marketing" owns all customer interactions, you've conceptually put the entire functioning of the company in under marketing's control. The only measurement for marketing becomes revenue, and therefore giving them a percentage of revenue is a compensation based upon the bogus measurement scheme.

  •  
    6

    fmoreno.m2000

    10/16/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    Branding is, oops, should be... the aggregation of customers' existing positive perceptions on the company and their products (acquired through satisfactory interactions with both, the goodies they pay for, and the service they get) into a "symbol" (logo, name, colors, tag line) that is easier and cheaper to communicate and whose sole goal is to increase sales (new customers, repeat customers). It fits better B2C and B2-fewB businesses.

    If you identify branding with the fun activities around finding a name, inventing tag lines and voting among those proposed, chatting with the hotties about what colors are more 'dynamic' for the logo... then you are right.

    If nobody does branding as a serious effort to reduce sales cost... then you are right.

    Everything fundamental in a business comes from customers, that's why my main activity in my Marketing position for a small startup still in stealth mode is to go with our salesreps to visit prospect customers. An average of two visits per week for 18 months. Many times not fun, not easy, not as good as I wanted, but still my most important activity. I learn a lot from those sessions, and I bring great feedback for my four P's.

    ...so Geoffrey, you are right.

  •  
    7

    Steve Tobak

    10/16/08 | Report as spam

    Your Viewpoint on Marketing

    Geoffrey,

    From a certain point of view, I couldn't agree with you more.

    But with all due respect, if, as you say, your viewpoint is restricted to a specific audience, you might want to actually say that upfront in your posts.

    Now, labels can be subjective, so let's put aside the whole B2B and B2C thing for the moment. Let's look at a specific example: the technology industry, where I spent 23 years with companies big and small, not just running marketing, but running worldwide sales organizations (you write about sales, right?) and product development teams.

    Your definition of marketing: "Real marketing consists of two functions: generating quality leads and reducing sales costs" is overly narrow and simply incorrect in the technology industry. I'm relatively certain that you wouldn't find a single CEO who agrees with your definition, and I'm talking about Microsoft, Cisco, Intel, Apple, IBM, Google, and thousands of others, big and small.

    In fact, I'm sort of surprised to even find myself having to explain any of this, especially to someone who I believe wrote a book about the culture of some of those companies. Intel's ex-vp of marketing Bill Davidow wrote the definitive book on the subject: Marketing High-Technology. You might want to check it out for a more in-depth explanation of the marketing function in that industry.

    Now, I'm only referring to tech because I don't wish to make the same mistake you made by overgeneralizing my direct career experience. But I'm pretty sure that my comment applies to a broad range of corporations and a large percentage of BNET readers.

    Moreover, I think the whole idea of characterizing millions of marketing professionals the way you have is sort of ludicrous. The individuals in every profession fit a bell curve in terms of capabilities and success factors: on one extreme you have brilliant, driven, outstanding performers, on the other extreme you have slackers and incompetents, and then you have everything in between. That applies to marketing, sales, finance, and yes, even writers.

    In summary, I don't relish putting myself in a position of defending any particular discipline. I just think that, by not explaining your relatively narrow view upfront, you're doing a disservice to BNET's readers and to your own credibility.

    Steve Tobak

  •  
    8

    tim8egan

    10/16/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    Marketing 101: Marketing consists of 4 main areas of
    research, creativity, and results. They are: Pricing,
    Product, Promotion, and Distribution. The 3 P's and a D.
    (Sales is therefore universally agreed to be only a part of
    the marketing whole...ask any MBA.) To simplify
    marketing, or to give simplistic examples of
    mismarketing to justify a hopelessly stilted, highly
    opinionated, and last but by no means least: wrong
    definition, is to not only expose a lack of understanding
    and knowledge, but worse, misinform others.

  •  
    9

    06897

    10/16/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    I think that your opinion is right on for Brand and Product Managers, but with recognition of the relativley new role of "Marketing Manager" i think that you do not give marketing managers enough credit for what our jobs are and what motivates us... let the Brand Managers and the Product Managers continue to play at 20,000 feet and spend with reckless abandon... us Marketing Managers are focused on the bottom line and making the brand or product work for the greater good and bottom line of the companies we work for.

  •  
    10

    monger@...

    10/16/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    Real marketers don't hate real marketing. Seems to be some confusion about what a real marketer is. And - what the heck is a marketeer Geoffrey? Was Annette Funicello a marketeer?

  •  
    11

    JoshReeve

    10/16/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    Thankyou Geoffrey,

    Branding is in some opinions a waste of time, and marketers are utilising their re-branding accomplishments for their careers, however:

    Would I as a B2B marketer be pigeon holed in this definition? The Answer is outright no.

    I agree with your point that marketing does need metrics. This has been a thorn in the marketers side for many years.

    Unfortunately there were no metrics that could be easily developed until now. With the onslaught of digital CRM, internet, and access to custom made databases, marketers can now build in the metrics to their marketing budgets.

    I for one, work in the Technology sector, in electronics manufacturing. Our primary goal is to generate B2B leads, and track them through the process.

    Branding plays a pivotal part in our offering. In our international trade, our brand is synonymous with Australian made and high quality. Without our brand (visual identity, traits ect..) our international customers would find it extremely difficult to recognise our company.

    Marketers don't hate real marketing, the other departments generally hate real marketing. Often it is a lack of understanding from others of the real marketing done by real marketers.

  •  
    12

    phildobbie

    10/16/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    There's always an issue when the only
    measurement for marketing is revenue. It really
    should be EBIT. Make the head of marketing
    accountable for product profitability and
    he/she will always shadow the sales rep an dget
    customer feedback. I think you're confused
    between full mix marketing and marketing
    communications. That said, I agree there are a
    lot of shallow marketers who think that
    marketing is all about brand and brand is all
    about colors and pretty pictures. They are
    probably better employed teaching kids are
    primary school.

  •  
    13

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    10/16/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    QUOTE: Sales is therefore universally agreed to be only a part of
    the marketing whole...ask any MBA.


    The fact that business schools agree on something probably means that it's dead wrong. As one my former managers once said to group of McKinsey consultants: "You Harvard MBAs don't know crap about how businesses really run." And he was dead right. They were utterly clueless.



    Before you trot out MBA programs as the gold standard of business wisdom, I suggest you read "Five Hard Truths about the MBA", which I wrote for BNET last year. Here's the URL:



    http://www.bnet.com/2403-13070_23-170538.html

  •  
    14

    heretolearn

    10/16/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    Well said! This is EXACTLY what I've been bleating to management since forever! And yes, we fastidiously avoid putting in metrics because who wants to be accountable when you can have SO MUCH FUN creating a new TV ad?

  •  
    15

    bjwtaylor

    10/16/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    Another reason is the huge fees ad execs can charge customers. Many millions for doing things a 10-year-old could come up with.

    Back in the '90's, Wachovia in all its infinite wisdom (yes, even back then if was so wise) paid tens of millions and waited for months for its new ad campaign that was to launch the company into a new era.

    Finally, the company gathered its tens of thousands of employees around speaker phones and tele-screens all over the country as we waited with bated breath for the new motto that was to take us into the 21st century.

    Here is what our bosses paid tens of millions for: "We are here."

    Yep, that was it. "We are here." That's what Madison Avenue or wherever they got these slick ad execs from came up with and sold to Wachovia, who heralded it as pure genius. And we employees sat in stunned silence as we listened to Wachovia's top exec extol the brilliance of this ad campaign. No one at my location dared say a word.

    The best actual ad: a very short shot of one kid boosting another kid over a fence to retrieve a baseball. After all, the kid was there, just like Wachovia was there for customers.

    No doubt all the millions of people who drove by Wachovia's thousands of sites every day didn't know Wachovia was there, but this stroke of genious "we are there" ad campaign was going to bring them streaming through the doors, deposits in hand.

    I wondered after that how any manager could write a poor performance appraisal with a straight face for any employee based on incompetence or bad judgment after seeing this incredibly stupid waste of shareholder funds by the CEO and Marketing Division.

  •  
    16

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    10/16/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    QUOTE: "We are here."

    Perhaps this was the real source of the campaign:



    "Be here now; if not, get here later"
    Mork from Ork

  •  
    17

    Morser

    10/17/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    Wow! What a load of one dimensional, myopic hot air. All summarised by the admission:
    'How do I know all of this? From personal experience'.
    Research first (properly) and then publish and we might listen more to you.

  •  
    18

    middleaged

    10/17/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    Given the fun and games in the finance industry of late, are they still there?.

  •  
    19

    NCWATKIS

    10/17/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    The purpose of marketing is to maximize the generation of sustainable profitable revenue, whether B2C or B2B. CMOs need to be able to quantify the efficiencty of their use of investment and assets to achieve the revenue and thus demonstrate their contribution to the business. Unfortunately, many marketers don't like to be accountable for demonstrating their contribution in ways that are comparable to other parts of the business.

    N.C.Watkis
    Contract Marketing Service

  •  
    20

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    10/17/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    QUOTE: Research first (properly) and then publish and we might listen more to you.

    Yes, we all know that, in marketing land, academic research trumps real life experience every time.

  •  
    21

    MikeDennehy

    10/19/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    I've been selling vertical market software for 15 years and I'm now CEO of the same company. When recently engaging a marketing company we agreed that the purpose of effective marketing was "to buy customers". I agree with an earlier post that to be efficient it should also acquire them at a cheaper cost than previously. I'm working with the guys at the right end of the bell curve - we also agreed that every initiative we undertake will be tested and measured - I didn't want to be in a position where I knew that 50% of my marketing was effective, but not knowing which 50%!

    I'd like to toss in some examples here in New Zealand where marketing is way more pointless than even the CA campaign. Every couple of years or so a number of Government Departments undergo a "rebranding exercise" at enormous cost to the tax-payer and zero benefit to anyone (oh wait, no, I mean except the marketing companies that attach themselves like leeches and peddle their syrupy marko-babble at huge profit). For example, the plain old Department of Labour transformed itself into the upbeat and charmingly-named WINZ (Work and Income New Zealand) at a cost of only $200m. Let me explain what WINZ does: they pay the dole (unemployment benefit) to people that can't or won't work. That's right, they hand out money to deadbeats. Why do they need a brand at all, let alone a flash new one? Are they trying to attract more customers? Note to marketing: the free money kind of takes care of that one.

    Of course the rebranding exercise involves everything from logos, signage, websites, letterheads, extensive PR, business cards, vehicles, an incredible amount of docmentation, training for all the staff so they "buy in" to the "brand", not to mention flying all the management around the country to stay in nice hotels at our expense so they can be educated about the "brand". In 18 months or two years, they'll do it all over again, and this pattern is repeated at a number of other departments where marketing and branding are similarly pointless. This seems to have emanated from a culture that public service organisations should think of themselves as a business, and marketing is what businesses do, right? They also pay their CEOs huge sums of money and why not? They're running a big "business" now. Aaaarrggghhh!!!

  •  
    22

    Cnwosu

    10/20/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    In my opinion, I don't think you're sounding
    the cymbal loud enough. I like your definition
    of marketing...generating QUALITY leads and
    reducing sales costs. I like the word QUALITY
    more because that really is the key word, but
    how many marketing companies and departments
    know this?

    I work for a security company in Nigeria and
    we've long mixed up the meaning of sales and
    marketing. Quite recently, the two were
    decentralised and there's still some sort of
    confusion. I think the sales people work too
    hard because they do the job of marketing and
    sales. If marketing were to do their jobs, then
    sales would have better leads and close more
    deals. This after all is why we're in business.

  •  
    23

    BasimSalim

    10/20/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    I find this article quite interesting. I am currently studying Brand Management at school under the umbrella of marketing, so I'm not an expert or anything. But from my understanding, I can agree with you from a certain point of view because I still do see branding as a function of marketing.

    Now I agree branding is something which often get's blamed for why a certain initiative doesn't work and it can come down to, well you can't measure brand equity properly. Hence you have marketers running away from the problem.

    On the other hand, let's look at branding, and depending on what model you use to measure brand equity it usually compromises of elements such as Differentiation, Relevance, Esteeem and Knowledge. Now if you look in turn of each of these elements, for example, differentiation of the production, it is in turn a result of the positioning strategy of the company, you will make your product distinct based on what your position is in the market. One cannot say that the sales people or the CEO makes it distinct. Sure they have thier input but the distinction is based on what our competitors are not doing. Similarly all the other elements are based on market research, in which the marketers are experts at, so they know what image to protray at which time and how much awareness in currently our market for our product and how can we make our brand well known.

    Sure, the sales and engineers have put in all the hard work. I consider them back-end of the company. It is the marketers who conceptualize and develop the direction of how they will move in the direction pointed out by CEO and branding is one element of that. One cannot go to a dinner part with thier swimsuit on because that's just not the strategy to be followed and the marketers decide what clothes one should be wearning. Then we should not be giving the credit to the armani suit maker but rather than the marketer who said, that suit will fit best the party.

  •  
    24

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    10/24/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    Email from a reader:




    I saw this today -



    http://directmag.com/roi/1001-romi-skews-calculations/



    And thought of the many comments you've made on the way marketing is measured - thought it might spawn a new dialogue.

    I agree with the author - measurements can prove anything - and simply reporting history is not enough today.

  •  
    25

    ericgagnon

    10/29/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    Geoffrey:

    A great article! I quoted from it and linked to it for a
    piece I wrote for BMI:

    http://www.businessmarketinginstitute.com/tmn102808.
    html

    Eric Gagnon

  •  
    26

    abourne4

    12/05/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    Advertising managers may hate real marketing, but real marketers don't. Having spent a fair amount of time in the B2B area, I was probably most frustrated by the inability to get good numbers for our direct efforts. The sales team's constant drum to "do more mailings" flew in the face of more methodical approaches and was complicated by their complete lack of cooperation on updating campaign information in our CRM system. Failing heed their requests led to frantic waving of arms down in the executive suite. But underlying that, we made sure that our "brand" stood out from competitors through all the standard marketing communications tools available outside of broadcast (not an option with our financial products). I believe it was this underlying brand platform that helped our target audiences like us well enough to want to do business with us and win significant business from competitors with no increase in distribution or use of promotions - a real result of branding.

  •  
    27

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    12/05/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    QUOTE: I believe it was this underlying brand platform that helped our target audiences like us well enough to want to do business with us and win significant business from competitors with no increase in distribution or use of promotions - a real result of branding.



    Probably the opposite was the case. The sales team wanted you to do more mailings because mailings are quantifiable. Instead, you decided to waste the company's money on marketing activities that were not measurable. That way, you can express the opinion (without anything to back it) that the company made sales because of your "branding." And I'll bet you have no idea how ridiculous that sounds to anybody who has actually sold for living.



    Look, any marketing activities that can't be quantified are simply wastes of time and money. I'll bet your sales reps and managers would have some choice words to say about the your "methodical approach."

  •  
    28

    dtaylor_UNT

    12/23/08 | Report as spam

    Complete claptrap

    Geoffrey,

    Let's see how this works. First, redefine marketers as party-going "marketeers" and "real marketing" as lead generation. Next, having created your two strawmen, pose them against each other.

    Generating leads for salespeople is a consequence of advertising and promotion, but it is hardly the scope of "real marketing."

    Real marketing is doing all the groundwork that matches a product with buyers, including research, product development and customer segmentation. Real marketing allows a company to market a product or service ("market" meaning to design, produce and deliver) to customers who want or need it.

    Real marketers are deliberate, analytical and, yes, results-driven. Just because you've encountered some party-going "marketeers" doesn't mean you should paint the entire profession with that brush, much less try to redefine the field.

    Some salespeople prefer to schmooze clients with happy hours and golf. Does that mean that I should call them "salesies" and claim that "real sales" is limited to order-taking? Of course not.

    As a closing note, in response to your answer to morser, any real marketer will indeed tell you that we'll heed sound research over "personal experience" any day of the week. How ironic that you berate marketers for not using metrics to measure results, then claiming that your personal observations trump actual real data.

    Please stick to writing about sales. You embarrass yourself.

  •  
    29

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    12/23/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Why Marketeers Hate REAL Marketing

    Quote from dtaylor_UNT Some salespeople prefer to schmooze clients with happy hours and golf. Does that mean that I should call them "salesies" and claim that "real sales" is limited to order-taking?

    You can do that if you like, but there's a big difference between Sales and Marketing. Sales is ALWAYS measured. If they don't sell, they get fired. And it's really obvious, really quickly, when they don't sell.

    By contrast, many marketing groups AREN'T measured, or are self-measured. So they're free to waste time and money like there's no tomorrow. I define "real" marketing as marketing that can be measured, and where the marketeers are responsible for the results -- and get fired if they can't deliver.



    I'm not surprised, though, that so many marketing professionals resist this idea. They've had it so good for so long that they're terrified they'll be forced to turn off the BS machine and actually do some real lead generation. Poor babies....

  •  
    30

    dtaylor_UNT

    12/23/08 | Report as spam

    Re: Why Marketers Hate REAL Marketing

    Quote from Geoffrey James: I define "real" marketing as marketing that can be measured, and where the marketeers are responsible for the results -- and get fired if they can't deliver.

    Some common ground! I agree that "real marketing" is measurable, though the unit of measurement may be customer satisfaction, market share or supply chain efficiencies in addition to sales. (All of those lead directly to higher revenues or lower costs.)

    You are undoubtedly correct about "some" or "many" of what you call "marketeers" who are not held accountable. What I and others object to is the broad brush you use to paint the entire profession. I, for one, never spent a dime without projecting, analyzing and then measuring ROI.

    Many of us in the field ("real marketers") are as number-driven as any finance person or, dare I say, salesperson. In fact, one of the very first steps that I teach in marketing research is to consider whether the benefit of the research (in dollars) outweighs the cost. If it doesn't, it's a no-go. Period.

    Part of the problem is that many marketing managers are hired from ad agencies (again conflating advertising and marketing), where the goal is to spend as much as possible on creative endeavors. That's how agencies are paid, so it makes sense in that environment, but not in a corporate marketing department. It sounds like you've had some bad experiences with those types. Real marketers they are not.

    One last thing that I have to reiterate is that marketing goes beyond lead generation (or starts before it, however you want to view it). Real marketers determine if there is even a market for a product/service through (that's right) measurable data. Then we identify and segment profitable target markets, develop the right mix of price, promotion and distribution. That all leads to those sales $$$. If a marketer doesn't deliver, he or she can and should be fired.

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