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The Umpire Strikes Back

April 12th, 2007 @ 6:19 am

15 Comments

Categories: General, Sales Tips

Tags: Customer, Sales, Geoffrey James

 

Dark HelmetWell, well…  My recent post about sales process appears to have offended some of the old guard, specifically David Kurlan, author of "Baseline Selling: How to Become a Sales Superstar by Using What You Already Know About the Game of Baseball".   He left a comment on my initial post here on BNET detailing his objections to a customer-centric approach.

I'll get to Kurlan's complaints in a minute, but before doing so, I can't help but comment on the expanded version of his criticism, which he posted in his own blog.  Just so we're all on the same page, here's an excerpt from his blog entry, as it appeared on 4/10:

"Give me a break.  Another blogger is trying to convince you that your selling process is obsolete… Geoffrey James, a freelance writer and author, but not a sales expert, has recently written about this subject and I strongly disagree with what he wrote."

Golly! I assumed that a decade in high tech sales and marketing, followed by a decade of writing about sales and marketing (a process that's involved being personally coached by dozens of top sales trainers) and a career (freelancing) where if I don't sell, I don't eat qualified me to blog about sales. Apparently not, at least according to Kurlan. I guess I'll have to follow in his footsteps and join the Association of Self-Appointed Sales Experts (ASASE) by sending in an application along with my two-cents, which I believe is the lifetime membership fee. 

Anyway, let's deconstruct Kurlan's comments to show how they exhibit the kind of thinking that alienates customers:

Point 1 - While many products and services are simply being bought, not sold, there are still a great number of products and services that are and will continue to be sold.  These include complex products and services as well as high-priced products and services and customized products and services.
Response:
Customers buy commodities at their own pleasure, usually on the web, with sales reps no longer necessary.  Customers also buy highly complex offerings without being sold them, but only after somebody with expertise has defined the elements of a complex solution.  This can be an internal expert, an independent consultant, or (if you're lucky) a sales consultant.  In both cases, the customer is buying.  Any offering that needs to be "sold" — without a customer already having a need or goal — is simply a waste of time.  Or a con job.

Point 2 - While it's important to consider how the customer wishes to be sold, a salesperson can't abandon a selling process while the customer/prospect uses one salesperson against the other to commodities [sic] the offering.  The salesperson still requires a road map and my process, introduced in Baseline Selling, identifies points in time, as opposed to sequential steps.
Response:
If a customer can turn what you're selling into a commodity, it's a commodity. In which case, you're out of a job — or ought to be.  The road map analogy is a bad one because most sales processes are more like Mapquest directions — they get you to one place, which may or may not be where the customer wants to go.

Point 3 - If salespeople waited until prospects were ready, they would be in competitive situations always - "I know what I want, now I just have to decide who to buy from."  While they may know what they want, without a salesperson to ask the right questions, they may not know what they need! 
Response: There are many ways to avoid becoming involved in competitive bidding.  One is to establish a unique market position. Another is to build a strategic relationship with the customer that allows you to act as the consultant who frames the discussion.  A rigid sales process tends to make either approach difficult to execute, because a focus on process often blunts the ability to use intuition and perception to understand what's actually going on in the account.  Beyond this, the assumption that customers don't know what they need is profoundly disrespectful and off-putting. Customers are smarter about their business than you are.  They know what they want to accomplish, even if they sometimes need help to figure out to accomplish it.

Point 4 - While some prospects will simply say "yes" at closing time, most won't, even when they're ready.  They need to be closed.  Effective salespeople help prospects make decisions to buy what they need.  Left to their own devices, prospects often fail to act at all.
Response:
There's a big difference between thinking of closing as something that you "do" to a customer as opposed to a way to help a customer make a final decision.  Kurlan's notion of closing almost always results in manipulative trick closes, which are ineffective, disrespectful and ultimately damaging to the long-term customer relationship.

Point 5 - While the economy won't come to a standstill, if everyone in sales moved to the customer centric model, there would be an awful lot of expensive, complex, custom-built products and services that would be sitting on shelves, with salespeople no longer able to demonstrate their value. 
Response:
The clear assumption in this paragraph, and indeed in Kurlan's entire sales philosophy, is that salespeople have to demonstrate their value by selling customers stuff that customers are too stupid to know that they want.  This is exactly the kind of attitude that makes customers think sales pros are obnoxious and arrogant.

As a general remark, Kurlan's apparent inability to understand how the sales profession is changing simply reflects the premise of his book, which recycles the tired "business as baseball" metaphor.

While there are aspects of team sports (teamwork, training, coaching, etc.) that are applicable to any business activity (including sales), team sports always assume that you're playing against a competitor who's playing the same game that you're playing, in fundamentally the same way, on a level playing field, with the same, unchanging rules.  That's just not true any longer in today's business world.

To be successful in a global, wired economy, you need to figure out the rules that the customer is using and then figure out how to use them to your advantage.  I realize that this terrifies the old guard, who can't stand the idea of giving up the illusion that they're in control of the sale.  But that's just how it is, and sales folk who can't adapt, and cling to the old hard-sell tactics, will find their sales fall limp and finally dwindle down to non-existence.

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  •  
    1

    djmnsf

    04/12/07 | Report as spam

    Not all fits in buckets, boxes, models and grids.

    Now that's the way to use the Web man. What great responses from the real world -- which cannot be forced into buckets, boxes, grids,or models. At least not for very long. Marketing is art, science and sport.

  •  
    2

    jdw@...

    04/14/07 | Report as spam

    Why isn't your sales experience in your bio?

    It's hard to take this post seriously, to be frank. Anyone with ten years experience of sales or marketing, who is being honest, will admit that they are different disciplines and indeed there is frequent friction between the two groups. And Geoffrey's woefully misguided comments betray all the classic mistakes of someone who (according to his bio) has not in fact ever been a professional sales person. He even appears to make the classic cliched assumption of people with experience in marketing, namely to be dismiss of sales people.

    I'm speaking as a 32 year old professional sales consultant, helping sell complex systems on behalf of a technology multinational. Speaking as the "new guard", I can assure Geoffrey that the essence of Kurlan's comments are correct.

    Besides, look at the huge errors in logic. The roadmap "may or may not be where the customer wants to go". A good salesperson would in fact ensure that the roadmap IS where the customer wants to go, and is constantly checking he's got it right. As for the analogy, personally any actual roadmap I've ever bought is capable of guiding me to multiple destinations, and likewise it's entirely possible in a sales cycle to plan for different outcomes when it has not been clearly established what the customers needs are.

    "If the customer can turn what you're selling into a commodity, it's a commodity". This is true - simple tautologies always are - but what if the customer *can't* turn it into a commodity? In selling complex systems, I can often prevent being turned into a commodity as part of the sales process. In fact Geoffrey touches on this himself when he says you can avoid getting involved in competitive bidding by establishing a unique market position.

    "If you're lucky", a sales consultant will help define requirements so that the customer can buy, rather than being sold to. What on earth does Geoffrey think us sales consultants are doing? We're selling our offering to the customer. And if the customer hires an independent consultant to manage the purchasing cycle, then the vendor consultants are simply going to sell to guy instead.

    There are a number of comments on the "arrogance" of sales people. Sure, it's a classic fault. But from an ex-marketing professional and now journalist and speaker? Oh, the irony! And more to the point - customers often do not know what they need. Simple example - many years ago as a student I worked in a music shop, selling guitars, recording gear and such like. People often knew they wanted to e.g. setup a home recording studio, wanted advice, and spoke to sales people they knew (or believed) they could trust.

    In my business, the assumption that a customer doesn't actually know exactly what they need is typically a valid one. There's a simple reason for this - good sales teams effectively provide them with free advice and save them time and effort.

    Kurlan's only real mistake is not to acknowledge that being customer-centric in your language, in how you approach presentations or roadmap planning etc, is essential, and perhaps more so than in the past. A salesman overtly self-centred is his own worst enemy. And continuing that theme, Geoffrey's idea of just using marketing for demand creation rather than actively going and finding opportunities is pathetically self-centred and cliched for a marketeer and content creator.

  •  
    3

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    04/14/07 | Report as spam

    Sigh...

    What strikes me about Kurlan?s original comment and the comment above is that both comments frame their criticism with an ad hominem attack on me. When people resort to ad hominem, it?s usually because they hope that by criticizing the person, they avoid the necessity of thoroughly addressing the issues that the person has raised. This method of debate (popular among politicians) also forces me to waste mental time and virtual ink dealing with the side issue of credibility rather than the real issue, which is what actually works in today's sales situations. Ah well?

    Why don't I emphasize sales experience in my website bio? Because my business doesn?t sell my ability to sell, but my ability to write about business. The reason that I'm the one of the highest-paid freelancers in the country is because I know how to sell -- emphatically not because of my writing skills, which are adequate at best. But it does me no good to point any of this out on my website, which is intended for my clients, not the for readers of this blog. For the record, the biggest thing I ever personally sold (flying solo) was a custom-built automated publishing system with a combined hardware/software value of about half a million dollars. The customer was Lockheed Martin.

    The notion that freelancing is not a sales-intensive activity is simply ignorant. When you start freelancing, it?s a 100% sales job, because you don?t have any clients. If you're successful and get a client base, the sales proportion of the workload shrinks, but you still have to sell every day to fill the pipeline. Much of what I?ve sold as a freelancer over the years has consisted of research projects that require a detailed understanding of the client?s business and the ability to develop an account, leading to a consultative solution sell. The fact that I also create the eventual product is irrelevant; I could just as easily be selling the services of another writer, or of a research group, or whatever. Selling is selling.

    As for the accusation that I?m just some marketing guy ragging on sales -- it might be a good idea to peruse my earlier posts on this subject because few people are more critical of marketing than I am. My main beef is that marketing geeks waste time creating dopey press releases and fancy product collateral, rather than doing what they?re supposed to do -- which is measurable demand creation and quantifiable lead generation. For a customer-centric sales process to work, marketing has to do their job. Most of the time they don?t and are simply wasting office space.

    In any case, my personal experience is a red herring. There are plenty of highly successful sales pros that can?t coach worth a damn and plenty of great coaches (let?s go with Kurlan?s baseball metaphor, just for yuks) who couldn?t hit a tennis ball to second base. Coaching (which is what this blog is all about) has more to do with understanding the problem and observing what works, rather than one's personal experiences, which are always limited to individual circumstances.

    Thus, while I?m basing this blog partly on my own experiences, I?m also drawing upon the observations and perspective of a broad swath of sales pros. For the past four years, I?ve immersed myself in sales culture, interviewed hundreds of sales pros about what makes them productive (and what doesn?t), and been personally coached on sales technique by dozens of the top sales trainers in the country.

    For example, my views on customer-centric selling are heavily based upon the ideas of Mike Bosworth, the top expert in the country on sales process and author of Solution Selling and CustomerCentric Selling. I?ve not only had a couple of hours of one-on-one conversation with him about this subject, but have heard him moderate three panels with audiences composed of hundreds of successful sales managers. I listened to how his ideas were received and compared that perspective with comments and remarks from other sales pros and sales trainers. My posts reflect the combination of all those varied inputs.

    But the invective and umbrage in the two comments isn't really about me; it's about the fear that the old guard experiences when confronted with the troubling reality that the Internet is irrevocably changing the power balance between seller and buyer. Some folk find it easier to take potshots at the messenger (me) rather than face the terrifying fact that their once-successful sales methods are rapidly becoming obsolete.

    What's ironic is that, if the old guard will just get on board with the customer-centric concept, many of the skills they've mastered in the past (like clarifying customer needs) will still be useful. But as long as they keep thinking about selling as something that you "do to" a customer rather than something you "do for" a customer, they're destined to see their sales opportunities gradually vanish. Because customers just won't -- and don't have to -- tolerate that attitude any longer.

    Geoffrey James

  •  
    4

    JohnOnSales

    04/18/07 | Report as spam

    not the issue...

    Geoff, I think you are missing the point.

    As a salespro, I have to start with the fact that the manipulative "closing tricks" mostly don't work any more. The sales process has changed just as the products we sell change, the people buying have changed, the market has changed, etc. What hasn't changed is that there is a process. The process isn't manipulative, but it is a process nevertheless.

    To wit: You can't really offer to sell (close) a customer until you know that (a) they are qualified to buy, and (b) you are qualified to sell, which is to say that your whatever solves their need/desire/want. So, if we say that the sale, or close, is the 4th step, then full qualification must be the 3rd step. But you can't fully qualify the prospect until you have found out what their problems are, what the problems cost, and that they are ready to consider a solution to that problem - so we'll call "Identify Problems/costs" as Step #2. Now obviously, you can do steps 2, 3, or 4 unless you have first interacted with this prospect, either by contacting them to find if they have a problem to solve, or the prospect contacts you looking for help.

    Like in Mathematics, Physics, or anything else, you need to follow certain steps. This is why you lost credit in math class for not showing your work. In sales, offering to sell a non-qualified prospect something is insulting to the prospect, and wastes your time. Just as trying to qualify a prospect's willingness and ability to do business when you have not even found out if they have a problem is insulting.

    In freelance writing (no, I'm not, but I can make assumptions like the best of 'em 8*), I would assume that you would find out what a publication publishes before you pitch a story? I would not try to sell this post to "Boys Life" or "Vogue". After that, wouldn't you need to find out if they even accept freelance stuff, or if they insist on doing it all in-house? This is the same process laid out as above. The difference is, once you have been doing it a long time, you no longer recognize it as a process with some definition, you merely see it as "the way you go about it".

    The universe is not chaos, or at least not completely. Most things follow certain paths, whether they adhere strictly to them or use them as a guide. While we no longer use the encyclopedia close of 52 progressive, pre-written questions all requiring a "yes" answer, we still follow a loose process of (1) do you have a problem? (2) do you think my idea of solving your problem will work? (3) are you ready, willing and able to actually spend your hard-earned stuff on my thing, or some other thing, in order to fix that problem?, and finally (4) How about my thing at this price, etc?

    Perhaps this is an issue of semantics, and you simply need to redefine what you mean by "process".

    PS this was so much fun, I am using it as a post on my blog and linking here (and elsewhere!)
    xoxoxo JohnOnSales
    (www.johnonsales.com)

  •  
    5

    dave@...

    04/18/07 | Report as spam

    My Response...

    Geoffrey,

    I wrote a detailed apology and response to your rebuttal on my blog at http://www.omghub.com/blog/tabid/5809/bid/1392/Selling-Processes-are-Dead-Part-II.aspx.

    But please, stop assuming that Baseline Selling is a "do to them" approach. If you haven't read it, please don't assume to know what it is, how it works, whether it's relevent or whether it's that different from what you believe is the only way. I'm not part of the old guard, I'm the new guard, but as with everything, there is always more than one approach and usually many names for the same thing.

    Dave Kurlan

  •  
    6

    meldot

    04/17/07 | Report as spam

    Figuring out the rules

    Great post and rebuttal. Your analogy to team sports was right on the money. "While there are aspects of team sports (teamwork, training, coaching, etc.) that are applicable to any business activity (including sales), team sports always assume that you're playing against a competitor who's playing the same game that you're playing, in fundamentally the same way, on a level playing field, with the same, unchanging rules. That's just not true any longer in today's business world."

    I'd like to add one thing to the following; "To be successful in a global, wired economy, you need to figure out the rules that the customer is using and then figure out how to use them to your advantage." Successful selling means helping the customer's customer be successful.If whatever you sell helps a client get their product or service to THEIR customer faster or better, your client succeeds because their customer succeeded.

    In addition to finding out what games and rules the client is playing, find out the same about their customers.

  •  
    7

    JohnOnSales

    04/18/07 | Report as spam

    you also missed the point....

    The point is not that baseball is a team sport. The point is that baseball is sport where all movement is forward (from base to base) until the movement stops completely (runner is thrown out). You might make a similar comparison to running the 1 mile, where you need to pass the finish line 4 times on a 1/4 mile track. again, you can't go back, you must either go forward or quit!
    JohnOnSales

  •  
    8

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    04/18/07 | Report as spam

    Sports Analogies

    Actually, if I were to pick out a sports analogy it would "The Ultimate Fighting Championship." Because there are no rules. Just behavior, adaptation, success and failure.

  •  
    9

    JohnOnSales

    04/19/07 | Report as spam

    still not getting it

    Acutally, the UFC has 10 rules. But that's beside the point. In the UFC, you can knock someone out or tap them out until the match starts. process. When I sold software for a living, Bosworth was godlike to me, because his process allowed you to sell "vapor-ware" (software not done being written) by focusing on the problems, costs of problems, solutions, and all the "go/no go" points. However, Solution Selling (TM) was one hard system to learn in detail, though the concept was simple enough.

    And finally, to all you salespros out there, when was the last time you were in a position to wait until a prospect called you?
    johnonsales

  •  
    10

    dave@...

    04/18/07 | Report as spam

    ...More on the Point

    The Baseball analogy doesn't make our prospect or customer an opponent! I use the Baseball analogy to give the process some entertainment value, to make something dry more interesting. The major component, as I've said before, is four points in time in the selling process. Even a customer centric approach has points in time. And I'm happy that you found value with your one-on-one time with Michael Bosworth. I respect him a lot. I just don't agree with all of it. I think the two sides are arguing about the wrong issue since I agree that the internet has changed things for a lot of products and services. Just not for everything.

    Dave Kurlan

  •  
    11

    nagas10

    04/17/07 | Report as spam

    A "pusher" or a "facilitator"?..

    ..still a section of students of Selling and practioners think that the job of selling is a tricky and even manipulative process. That is why selling is still preferably being called an Art! The changing role of a salesman from that of a "pusher" to a "facilitator" is hardly understood. I have seen this urgency in "closing the call" rather than "entering into a relationship" which has a multiple value payoff. Good article
    R Nagarajan / Brand Kare

  •  
    12

    dave@...

    04/18/07 | Report as spam

    You Said it Better than I Could

    John,

    Nice job providing a different view of the same argument. I couldn't have made your points any better. And one more thing we have in common - our music backgrounds!

    Dave Kurlan

  •  
    13

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    04/19/07 | Report as spam

    Quick note on Kurlan's blog...

    In Kurlan's blog he accuses me of posting, under a different name, a negative book review on his Amazon.com listing. In fact, I never heard of Kurlan before he posted his comment here on BNET and linked his blog to my post. In any case, I never post anonymously or pseudonymously.

    It's interesting that Kurlan would accuse me of monkeying with his Amazon listings, considering that his Amazon.com reader reviews are universally positive (5 stars), were all entered within a three month period, all use similar wording (usually echoing the book title in the review title) and are all (except one) from people who have reviewed only Kurlan's books. (As of 4/19/07.)

    Since reviews from independent readers generally include some criticism, trickle in over time, read differently, and come from people who review a range of books, it's hard not to conclude that Kurlan got his pals to puff his listing. If so, he wouldn't be the first or the last business author to do so. (Gaming Amazon.com is wicked easy.) As such, though, I'm guessing that at least some of the comments supporting his viewpoint in this thread might be coming from some of the same pals. Just a guess.

    But that's totally a side issue. I really don't think poorly of Kurlan or of his book, which I admit that I have not read. I absolutely agree that in most cases having a sales process -- any process -- is better than having no process whatsoever! However, there is compelling evidence that the Internet is changing the power dynamic between buyer and seller, and that this demands a fundamental change in sales process.

    For example, the market research firm CSO Insights recently surveyed sales executives from 1300 companies. The top line results were as follows:

    One significant issue we highlighted in our featured research report in the Harvard Business Review this past summer (Jul-Aug ’06) is the disconnect occurring between today’s “buy cycle”
    and the “sell cycle.” The first of these elements has changed dramatically with the availability of information on the Internet. The buying process often starts long before the sales process, as
    prospects access product facts, pricing, reviews, existing customer feedback, etc., without ever talking to a salesperson.

    And when your salespeople are eventually brought into the process, buyers are now expecting them to bring much more to the table than just a rehash of product knowledge, features, and benefits. These buyers are expecting your reps to have done their homework on their needs and be able to describe how your product/service offering will meet and exceed their expectations.

    While it might be easy to say that this situation requires a different approach (and most CSOs we talk to agree that change is needed), fundamental change is not happening in the majority of cases. When we look at how salespeople perform today, what we call their “sales workstyle,” we often see reps relying on processes that may have served them well in the 1980’s and 1990’s, but do not fit today’s much more dynamic world.
    (Kudos to Shonka and Kosch.)

    So, while I happen to think that Kurlan is a smart guy and has a lot to contribute to any discussion of sales tactics, based upon his comments in this post and in his blog, some of his concepts need to be updated. The Internet -- like it or not -- puts the customer in a position of power, forcing the sales process to become more reactive and flexible. That was the point of my original post and I stand by that opinion.

    Geoffrey James

  •  
    14

    dave@...

    04/20/07 | Report as spam

    You're Not Paying Attention

    Geoffrey, I didn't accuse you of anything. Just floated out the concept of how cool it would be if that anonymous reviewer was you. And I certainly wasn't talking about reviews on Amazon.com. I'm talking about book reviews, published by the trades. And I don't ask my buddies to review my book or post on your blog. If you read my book you'd realize I don't have that many friends!

    I agree with your points about the internet changing things. No argument here. I agree that the prospect has more knowledge today than even a year ago. And I agree that the salesperson has to bring more to the table than features and benefits.

    My Blog is about sales management and I sometimes venture off topic to talk about sales and selling. But if you read the book, I'll bet you won't find much in there that you'd disagree with. We're both talking about accomplishing the same things but your original post had a very anti-selling tone to it and that's what I orginally took exception to.

    I think we should call a truce now. We've probably played this out long enough, had enough fun with it, attracted a whole bunch of new readers to both blogs and said what we needed to say.

    I'm looking forward to speaking with you by phone or in person sometime soon.

    Dave Kurlan

  •  
    15

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    04/20/07 | Report as spam

    Truce accepted.

    Dave,
    Thanks for ending my week on an up note!
    Geoffrey

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