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The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

April 22nd, 2009 @ 11:30 am

40 Comments

Categories: Marketing, Rant, Watercooler

Tags: P, Marketing Research, Marketing, Geoffrey James

I keep getting comments quoting the “four Ps of marketing” in refutation of my critique of brand-oriented marketing.  Far from a crushing counter-argument, the “four Ps” are exactly the kind of mental mush that makes marketing ineffective.  Here’s a typical comment, from the post “How Branding Can Kill Your Profit“:

Perhaps you need a refresher in business basics: Product, distribution (place), promotion are three of the four most basic, integral parts of marketing (price is the fourth). Branding is the belief system about these things plus the company.

There are so many things wrong with the “four Ps” concept that I hardly know where to start.  But here goes…

First, the “four Ps” is a cutesy mnemonic, but it tends to make all four elements seem as if they are of equal importance.  But they’re not, are they?  Of the four, “product” is by far the most important, because if you don’t have a product, all of the rest are meaningless.

Second, if “promotion” and “place” are as important as “product”, then companies should be spending twice as much on marketing as they do on cost of goods.  While that might make some marketers happy, you’d go out of business so fast your corporate heads would spin.

Third, there’s a gigantic omission in the “four Ps” concept: Sales.  Selling the product (infinitely more important than promoting it) has been completely removed from the equation.  One could argue that it’s included in “place” but it’s clearly not even a minor focus.

Finally, there’s an even bigger omission in the “four Ps” concept: Customers.  The people who actually buy things are reduced to invisible objects.  They may get to play a role in defining product (via focus group, perhaps) but that’s about it.

In short, the whole “four Ps” idea is so stupid that I’m surprised that marketers keep trying to spout it as if it’s some sort of business gospel.

Perhaps you’re curious who thought up this “four Ps” tripe?  Even before looking it up, I said to myself — gotta be somebody from the Harvard Business School.  And, sure enough, the concept came from professor E. Jerome McCarthy, who was at the Harvard Business School in the early 1960s.

So here we are, in a world with marketing messages blasted at us from hundreds of different outlets and with access to a trillion pages of information on the Internet…  and we’ve still got marketers spouting a business concept that dates from back when the typical TV had 3 stations on it.

Incredible.

But what’s even sadder and funnier than that is that McCarthy was talking about the mass marketing of consumer products, not B2B.  Even so, marketer keep trotting out examplars like Coke in order to justify spending big money to brand businesses that sell to other businesses.

Insane!

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  •  
    1

    dennis@...

    04/22/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Mate - love your work. I regularly refer my MBAs to your articles for a counter-perspective. (I am only p/t lecturer for fun -so don't hold that against me.)
    BUT - the concept you are knocking here can actually be made sensible. For instance, selling is actually one of the elements in the 'promotional' variable.
    It is not particularly useful - I know - but that is another story. Maybe one day if we happen to meet over a nice Merlot?

  •  
    2

    Nataliuks

    04/23/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    4 P's technique is way not limited to the definition, please look up such childish resource as wikipedia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing

    It expands the concept of 4 P's and actually shows that this approach can be really informative and include sales and customers. And generally you cannot come up with 4 P's if you don't have SWOT.

  •  
    3

    tdejaray

    04/23/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    I thin the key thing that Geoff brings to the argument is..."Hey lets just think things through here." What is the key objective of the marketing exercise? Drive in leads? Sales? Brand awareness is nice but cannot be directly tied to sales. You could spend a billion dollars branding an 8 track player (remember them?) and what would you have achieved?

    I go back to Geoff's earlier rebuff's. He is not anti-marketing he is anti - measuring. And how do you argue that!

  •  
    4

    DrBruin

    04/23/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    It'd be interesting to trace the history of Marketing as an academic discipline in business schools. Why did Marketing achieve status, but Sales didn't? There are almost no B-schools with programs in professional sales, but they all do Marketing. Curious. Maybe it's the cachet of Madison Avenue? The legacy of the old traveling salesman? Don't know, but it'd make an interesting study.

  •  
    5

    mohamed taha

    04/23/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    let us confine our point of view to 2 points u already raised in ur article
    sales which already incorporated as one of promotion mix and by far as u know it is the most expensive way of promotion and it is always associated with marketing
    customers lie in the core of marketing definition as marketers start and end are with customers

  •  
    6

    SteveRider

    04/23/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Yes, Philip Kotler is an idiot. Thankfully, we have Geoffrey James to set us straight.

  •  
    7

    nelsonve48

    04/23/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Well, that was a professionally written post! In all of the reading I've done and classes I've taken, no one ever suggested that each of the four Ps were equally important. So, first start with an assumption that isn't shared by many others. Two, carry that assumption forward with point number two (that the 4Ps call for spending twice as much on marketing as on cost of goods) Three, assume again that since the word Sales doesn't start with a 'P' that it isn't included in the four Ps at all. Fourth, further assume that customers don't play a part in any of the four Ps.

    Then just for an added touch of professionalism be sure to get in another dig about HBS and MBAs with the usual arrogant tone.

    Maybe I'm just an old "Fuzzy Brain" type but I think the four Ps make a pretty good framework for looking at, analyzing, and studying Marketing.

  •  
    8

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    04/23/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Steve:

    In my view, the idiots are the people who blindly follow Kotler without wondering 1) if the ideas really make any sense, or 2) whether ideas generated in the 1960s are relevant in 2009.

    Consider: in the 1960s about the only women in business were secretaries. There were NO minorities. It was normal to get sloshed at lunch. Advertising was simplistic with few channels. Demographics were basic to the point of absurdity. It was a totally different world in terms of both infrastructure and business culture.

    The notion that Kotler's ideas -- or any business concepts -- are eternal for all time is beyond ludicrous. What works in business changes according to the needs of the surrounding culture.

    In any case, arguing from authority (i.e. saying that Kotler is this big famous expert dude and Geoffrey is just some jackass with a blog) went out of fashion in the medieval era. Ideas have to stand on their own merits.

    The "four Ps" don't make sense to me. Maybe they make sense to you. They probably do, if you're one of those marketers who is actively involved in advancing his career by spending money without meaningful measurement to sales actually generated.

    I tell you, when I hear this kind of stuff, I think of some ink-stained monk trying to tell Gutenberg that he's got to add some more little bitty drawings to his books or he'll never make any sales.

    What part of "The Internet Changes Everything" don't you understand?

  •  
    9

    ray@...

    04/23/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    1. Who said the 4 P's are all equal? I have never read that. They vary in weight based on product, goals, company, and many other things. If Product were the most important, then the best product would always win. That is not always the case.
    2. Bad assumption on number 1 negates the argument in number 2.
    3. As an earlier commenter stated Sales is and always has been part of promotion and in some cases part of place/distribution.
    4. The customer defines the 4 P's. What does the customer want, where is the customer, what is the customer willing to pay, how do you reach the customer.

  •  
    10

    peter@...

    04/23/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Let me suggest that you don't understand the concept of the 4 Ps - the marketing mix. The concept specifically looks at differing weights for each component - hence the "mix". Sales comes under promotion. The concept is tied to the concept of marketing, a concept which is about a transaction with a.....customer. The concept rests upon a foundation, that being how a company will communicate with its current and potential customers.

    Let me further suggest that there are many products that are essentially generic, so the components that would have the most weight might be price, place or promotion. Coke and Pepsi are essentially undifferentiated products that rely principally on promotion (advertising, pr, and yes, sales) to sell their versions of sugared soda water.

    The 4 Ps are is solid concept, but it is not a straight jacket. Marketing - all marketing - starts with one question: what are you tryng to achieve?

  •  
    11

    jeffrycaudill

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    To use your same logic, specifically this stretch of imagination...."but it tends to make all four elements seem as if they are of equal importance", we should ignore the 4P's. Then we have no product, and therefore no price, no need to distribute the product, and of course no promotional budget. Voila... I think that to draw attention to your post, your making an outrageous statement, and placing a rigid box around the 4P concept that doesn't exist...."mental mush" to once again use your own words.

  •  
    12

    Kharoufh

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    I think your understanding of the marketing mix and your
    argument is rather naive. First the marketing mix concept was
    introduced by Neil Borden in the early 1950s as mixture of 12
    ingredients. E. Jerome McCarthy simplified these 12
    ingredients into 4 or as we know them ?the 4p?s?.
    Now the 4p?s model was intended to explain the basic
    marketing concepts not to be an applied model to magically
    enhance the business (you determine the importance of each
    element depending on your business). In addition, you will
    never be able to create a list that includes all the items.
    Claiming that product is the most important element is also a
    na?ve claim, several businesses don?t even have a product,
    for example, a barber shop or a stand up comedian.
    Finally, other researchers attempted to add extra P?s to the
    mix to fit other industries such as the service sector (see for
    instance Booms and Bitner 1982 and their 7P?s model).
    Please run your information by a marketing academic before
    you publish.

  •  
    13

    nkilany

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Thanks Kharoufh,

    I was going to write and expand on it but seeing your reply, I'm satisfied at this stage.

  •  
    14

    darsh_kurl

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    The 4 P's are by far the pillars of Marketing mix and explains the core concept of Marketing. You cannot do graduation without going to nursery. An apple to apple comparision of the 4 P's with todays B2B enviornment is completely absurd. To understand the marketing principles, one has to understand the Marketing mix and than later can be expanded to relate with todays environment. The measurment of all the P's are not equal and yes, Sales comes under promotion.

  •  
    15

    DENNIMF

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    4 P's serves as a good foundation towards understanding marketing, however due to the dynamic nature of the environment, it is important to always incorporate latest thinking & make modifications to suit a particular requirement rather than adopting a rigid mentality towards the concept.

  •  
    16

    davidmapple

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    I have no doubt that Geoffrey James is a well respected publisher of practical business guides and a worthy contributor to BNET. Equally, I have no doubt that any business model, irrespective of origin, will always be open to debate. Marketing is not prescriptive and what works for one can be a waste of resource for another. If Geoffrey is not an advocate of the Marketing Mix, he is perfectly entitled to offer his opinion.

    However, if a specific model is going to be criticised, at least do a little research beforehand in order to validate the opinion. I have neither the time nor inclination to enter into a debate on how many P's there are today or who came up with the original concept. I have seen the Marketing Mix used effectively for a variety of business objectives, but have also seen it used ineffectively without clear business objectives. In both cases, it was the application of the model that influenced the outcome.

    Please can we acknowledge that models are what you make of them before we aimlessly write them off without good reason?

  •  
    17

    Cat33

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Forgive what may be a gross oversimplication but here's how I see it as a Marketing Director for a service based organsiation and also a p/t lecturer in marketing.

    I have always updated my own use of the 4P's to the 5C's: Customer Offer, Cost to Customer, Channels of Distribution, Communication and Culture.

    I do believe that most marketeers worth their salt know the limitations of the model. I have yet to meet anyone who is a 'slave' to it or indeed who advocated/uses the component 'P's' 'C's' equally. Rather I find this a very useful model to frame the detail of marketing strategies.

    I also the 5C's extremely useful in communicating the impact / influence of marketing strategy to non marketers (my CEO & board) and its impact across the organisation.

    Sales is of course included within Communication and Channels - but ultimately if you get your 5C's right you deliver a better sales performance in the long run. I thought this almost went without saying!

  •  
    18

    davidmapple

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Good point well made Cat. It's good to see the model being applied effectively to meet the needs of your business and to see a creative approach and application of a standard model. The culture I have seen covered by People, but who cares what it's called as long as it works for your business? It can help to put marketing into laymens terms and central to the development of the business, making at a useful tool for any Marketing Director.

  •  
    19

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Even if the "four Ps" have theoretical validity (a point I am still not willing to concede), in practice they are used to justify marketing that's divorced from measurement. Focusing on the "four Ps" in actual practice tends to create marketing groups that pursue grandiose activities rather than spending time on what marketing is supposed to be doing, which is 1) generating qualified leads and 2) reducing the cost of sale.

    The "four Ps" is just a polemical and cynical attempt to transform marketing from what it's supposed to be -- a tactical function of sales -- into a strategic function that can take credit for everything that goes on a company, but not take responsibility if those functions fail. What's more, they define marketing in a way that makes it difficult or even impossible to measure whether marketing is being effective or not -- except at the gross level of revenue.

  •  
    20

    Ian P

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Geoffrey, why do I get the impression that you were bouncing in your seat as you replied to these comment?
    In my mind Black and Decker the tool company used the four P's from 1970 onwards to sell a range of power tools in the UK market.
    In many respects they destroyed their own reputation.
    They had the products, a class of medium quality power tools and accessories;

    They identified and placed the product brilliantly, the burgeoning DIY market. (I disagree with you on the definition of placement I think it was always meant to identify market segment). However they did flood our DIY stores with their products so they achieved your distribution definition easily.

    They promoted the product and brand with extensive and expensive advertising.

    They priced their range at the lower to middle segment of the DIY market.

    The net result. They opened up a market and initially sold well, but they soon got an undeserved reputation for pushing poor quality goods onto people who didn't know better.
    They tools were sneered at by professionals and top of the range DIYers. Black and Decker soon became a joke name in the UK and their advertising became common fare to stand-up comedians in night spots and on TV.
    Over the past 30 to 35 years they have stayed in that slot, not really regarded with the respect they deserve. Although still in the market the brand is now largely defunct in the UK with the low cost end taken over by Chinese / Indian supplied tools and European 'professional' tools taking the middle to high end.

    This is a shame, because I believe the brand is very popular in the US and their tools are much better than most people in the UK believe.

    So to get to the point - B&D used the four P's excellently but the process backfired. There was something missing in their game plan. The four P's is, as you say, not enough.

  •  
    21

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Ian,

    First, I just wanted to let you know that I am noticing (as is everyone else I'm sure) that your contributions to these discussion are always useful, even (or especially) when you disagree with me. Thanks!

    Second, your point is well taken. The problem with the "four Ps" is that the first P is about ten times more important than the other three. And the "promotion" part, which was never was all that important, has become MASSIVELY less important now that the Internet provides instantaneous worldwide word of mouth.

    Why read an ad when you can read what people who have actually used the product have to say about it? Jeez-louise, you'd think that none of these people have ever noticed that you can get dozens of user reviews on most products.

    There's not a "promotion" in the world that can override bad word-of-mouth, and you can get bad word-of-mouth in a heartbeat -- all over the world, too -- if your product isn't top notch.

    It's very frustrating that people simply don't understand how the Internet changes the nature of marketing. Kotler's stuff is mushy enough to retrofit to whatever you need it to be, but it's still the wrong way of thinking about marketing.

  •  
    22

    lahollin

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Although I mention the 4 P's model in my marketing class, I actually spend more time on the 5 C's (Consumers, Context, Convenience, Convergence, Community) because it focuses on the end-user, not my business operations. If I can align my sales AND marketing with these facets (i.e. right time and right product service), this game becomes easy.

  •  
    23

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Like the "five Cs" concept, but it lacks one essential element -- measurement. I tried to think of something meaning "measurement" that started with a "C" but then realized that there's a problem with these cutesy alliterative mnemonics: they tend to sacrifice meaning in order to achieve memorability.

  •  
    24

    W Byerly

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Ray - You are on target. The 4P's represent concepts or guidelines - I use them all the time to see if I have touched all the bases. Times change but principles don't. Just because they are 40 years old doesn't make them BS. In applying the 4 Ps the marketer needs to make their efforts relevant, effective and provide a positive ROI.

    GJames: On your last post you indicated marketing was supposed to be "a tactical function of sales" - Now you are drinking your own koolaid.

  •  
    25

    Cat33

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    I am so glad you like my 5C's but for Clarity (get it? ;-)) Can I just add - my 5C's are a framework for Marketing plans/activies that support a business - marketing if you like - strategy and that is not exclusive, nor isolated, nor divorced from other strategic activity including financial planning. Quite the contrary.

    I am, I assure you, highly accountable for 'failure' as I am the return on investment and the cost to the company of acquiring a customer in relation to the 'sale' achieved. Indeed in my 5C's we oftern refer to Cost to the Customer as well as Cost to the Company too.

    As an example I am challenged with a maximum ?0.65 cost in acquisition with a minimum ?16.00 return. I plan my activity within the 5C's with this in mind.

    I believe that even the BEST sales cannot turnaround a bad product or negative perception in the marketplace alone.

    RE: B&D - it's not the framework that cuased the problem for the but the decisions they made within in. They chose a marketing poisitioning that wasn't sustainable in the long term - if you'll forgive me for saying this is oftern the problem associated with have a entrenched 'sales' mentality.

    Still, enjoying the debate. Your's cutesy Cat.

  •  
    26

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Cat:
    Actually the sixth one can be Cost, which implies that you're measuring the cost of marketing.

  •  
    27

    paulmaglione

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Sorry, you are wrong on so many accounts that it really
    deserves a blow-by-blow rebuttal:

    1. "The 4 P's....tends to make all four elements seem as if
    they are of equal importance. But they?re not, are they?"

    That depends. You can have a great product and fantastic
    promotion, but try pricing detergent in a supermarket at 4x
    the price of the store brand: you will have sales of $0. So it
    depends on the product category, the distribution, and the
    competition.

    2. "If ?promotion? and ?place? are as important as ?product?,
    then companies should be spending twice as much on
    marketing as they do on cost of goods."

    OK, take Coca Cola: it cost pennies to make, but hundreds
    of millions to promote and hundreds of millions again to
    distribute. Again, it all depends on your market.

    3. "There?s a gigantic omission in the ?four Ps? concept:
    Sales. Selling the product (infinitely more important than
    promoting it) has been completely removed from the
    equation."

    A great sales team can only raise your market share a few
    points from where it would be otherwise. No buyer ever
    accepted a shoddy product at the wrong price in the wrong
    sales channel just because the salesperson is fun to play
    golf with. If the 4 P's are ticking away nicely, the sales
    person has a much easier job. Which is why it's secondary
    to the basic commercial framework.

    4. No mention of customers.

    The whole point of the 4 P's is to really understand
    customers. What they like, what they will buy, desired
    features, right pricing, points of differentiation with
    competing products, easy to find, easy to buy. Getting those
    right is all ABOUT customers.

    I'm afraid you are just thinking about these 4 "P"'s at a very
    superficial and literal level and not understanding what they
    represent and how they shape the whole commercial
    strategy of any enterprise. Very disappointing article.

  •  
    28

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Re: the points in the previous comment (#27):

    1. Price is just an aspect of product, which is one of the reasons why it's stupid to break it out separately. And if your product sucks, it's not going to command any price, whatsoever.

    2. Again with the Coca Cola examples... Why is it that every time I write about marketing somebody trots out Coke as a counter-example. Look, people, Coke is over 100 years old. It's a special case. Unless you've got a time machine, no more Coke examples, OK??

    3. Once again we see what a typical marketer thinks about the sales force. People who have never sold (like this guy) confuse selling with schmoozing. (As if no marketer ever sucked up to top management...) The truth: if sales don't take place, there is no business. Therefore, sales is ALWAYS the most important function in EVERY commercial organization. Marketers who don't believe this should be fired on sight.

    4. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the reason that I bought a new gaming console was because I wanted to relax so that I could spend more time with my wife. Come off it, dude... The "four Ps" -- as practiced in the real world -- is all about budget and about positioning marketing as a strategic function instead of a tactical one. It leads directly towards a grandiose vision of what marketing is all about, along with all the unmeasurable BS that passes for marketing in most companies.

  •  
    29

    Bernieh

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    I 100% agree!

    The other often forgotten variable is Competition! (A component of "selling" that you correctly point out is missing.)

    Customers and Competition disapear from discussion when the company's thinking gets so inward that they think it's as simple as the 4 %@#$!! P's!

  •  
    30

    Kharoufh

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    One more time I see the myopic views of Geoffrey James, so
    here is my reply on them:

    1- Companies not always seek sales, sometimes increasing
    awareness about your product is a profit by itself, think of
    the non-profit organisations.

    2- ?Sales? is a short term measurement of success, building
    lost lasting relationships with customers is what companies
    seek nowadays.

    3- Some customers remain loyal even though if they don?t
    buy straight away from your company, as we call it; they
    have attitudinal loyalty.

    4- Slashing Kotler indicates a lack theoretical knowledge;
    Philip Kotler?s book is only a book to illustrate the principles of
    marketing based on whats been written so far (mainly classic
    theory), his book(s), however, is 99% similar to any other
    marketing book (for example; Jobber and Fahy and Stephen
    Pettitt).

    5- Price in the marketing mix is not measured directly by
    how much you price the product. we include other factors,
    such as cost. The point is the marketing mix is only a
    headline to other marketing activities the company should
    apply. so think 'outside the box' and not only with the rigid
    term of the 4p's

    6- On a side note: he will be coming to Coventry
    University in July/10 as keynote speaking for the AM
    conference (to be confirmed). Feel free to come along and
    debate him!!!

  •  
    31

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Reply to comment 30:

    1. Non profits have big sales teams who are very effective. They're called fund-raisers and grant-writers. The idea that non-profits don't sell is absurd.

    2. Sales is the ONLY measurement of success. The fact that anybody can maintain otherwise is ample evidence that philosophies like the "four Ps" tend to warp one's view of what business is all about.

    3. If a customer isn't buying from you they aren't loyal. Whomever made up that concept of "attitudinal" loyalty was trying to justify a failure in the marketplace. If they don't buy from you they aren't your customers. It amazes me that I have to point out something this basic.

    4. Yes, I agree, other marketing books are just as ridiculous and irrelevant as Kotler's. I wish marketers would stop reading books and start doing something useful like generate pre-qualified sales leads.

    5. If you have to think "outside of the box" (where are the cliche police when you need them...) then maybe the box is stupid.

    6. Gee, he's still alive? He must look like the Crypt-keeper by now.

  •  
    32

    Kharoufh

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    you are contradicting yourself now! at one point you say
    WOM is the most important element in promotion and yet you
    argue that 'attitudinal loyalty' is a non existing concept. some
    people might be loyal to your brand without buying every
    year (a car for example) at the same time they recommend
    your company/products to others, or some people might use
    the product at work/friends house/parents and recommend it
    without buying it.

    once again sales is a function of marketing. if you want to
    talk in econometrics terms, marketing contribution to the
    value of the firm is determined by 'innovation' (See peter
    Leeflang's work)

    The marketing books is only there to explain the principles of
    marketing, managers don't have marketing books on their
    desks trying to apply the various concepts in their business.
    so they are there to help non-marketing people to understand
    what is marketing.

  •  
    33

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Re: 32.
    You've got to be kidding. Word of mouth like "I really like Apple but I bought a Gateway" isn't going to drive ANYBODY to buy an Apple. The only word of mouth that has any value is word of mouth from a CUSTOMER. Somebody who buys from you. Get it?

  •  
    34

    wkshui

    04/24/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Dear all, interesting to read your comments.
    The 4Ps of marketing is a great concept and it will grow with time. It teaches us the "means" to meet the "ends" (sales or attitude change).

    Changing 4Ps into 7Ps, 4Cs or 5Cs is just a way to design your "means" from different perspectives. The principle is still valid.

  •  
    35

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    04/25/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Re: 34
    Unfortunately that concept is "turn marketing from a tactical function of selling into a strategy function" -- which translates into grandiose, unmeasurable marketing efforts that waste time and money.

  •  
    36

    paulmaglione

    04/25/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Hi there, in reply to your comments regarding my post and those of others who have disagreed with you:

    1. You say Price is just an aspect of product. So who sets the price of most goods: the product designers and engineers who plan and make the product? No, price is a specific issue and probably the hardest one to get right.

    2. So you don't like the Coca Cola example for goods that cost little to make and lots to promote: you say that's a historical one-off. OK, what about perfume? Apparel? Shampoo? Footwear? Toys? Do you have any idea of the gross margins in these industries?

    3. You dismissively say "Once again we see what a typical marketer thinks about the sales force." First of all, I'm in general management; I head up a company, I employ both Sales and Marketing people. I have the greatest respect for Sales people, they are huge drivers of growth and competitivity. I'm just saying that unless you get the other stuff right, even brilliant sales people will not be able to make much of a difference -- unless they are in a position to drive the required changes to the elements in the 4 'P's.

    4. It sounds like you've been stung by a lot of bad corporate experiences; sales vs marketing issues with budgets and political infighting thrown in the mix. And yes, there are really bad Marketing people who use a lot of BS to justify their existences; in the same way that there are poor Sales guys who blame everything on Marketing and on the Product. But that's noise; what really counts is that the Product really is superior and that the top management really has a dynamic vision of how to stay one step ahead of the competition with it -- witness Apple. It really is about vision, strategy, and making the right bets. Everything else is just icing.

    We probably agree more than we disagree; keep up the good workl

  •  
    37

    S K "Bal" Palekar

    04/25/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    I dont care much for the "4Ps" model - it is a mere template for expressing "Marketing Mix". The "Marketing Mix" is an important concept though. It gives an insight into the mind of the marketing strategist. In fact "Marketing Mix" is a strategic expression of how the strategist wants to move in the market. Two different strategists operating in the same market lay out their "Marketing Mix" differently and this reflects their own way of thinking.

  •  
    38

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    04/25/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Re: Comment 36, point 3: You may be in general management but you think and write like a marketer.

    Re: Comment 36, point 4: The point that there are lousy sales reps (and that somehow justifies the fact that there's lousy marketers, too) keeps coming up in these discussions. But there is no moral or mental equivalence between a lousy marketer and a lousy sales rep. A sales rep who can't sell gets fired -- pronto! A marketer who wastes money on unmeasurable BS is likely to get promoted if he can pull out something like the "four Ps" to justify automatic marketing expenditure. I'll bet you've promoted plenty of them, based upon your faith in the "strategic" nature of marketing.

    You see, I just don't buy it that marketing can have, or even should have, the "vision" for the company. In almost every case -- and I've interviewed HUNDREDS of marketing executives -- and the ones that were full of "vision" were actually full of cliches and other assorted BS.

    Market strategy is something that you need to set maybe twice a decade. And market strategy takes one person about three days to figure out 90 percent of that kind of thing. The reason is simple. It takes a fairly long time, for example, to actually build a sales channel (direct or indirect). Product pricing is mostly dictated by existing market conditions and cost of goods. How it's all brought together into something unique is -- 9 times out of 10 -- happening in the sales group.

    Marketing executives that have "vision", on the other hand, simply churn "strategy" so that nothing ever gets actually gets done. If you have to set a new strategy every six months (and you'd have to if marketing is "strategic") you're just adding to the cost of sales. What a waste of time and energy.

    By the way, the Internet is why you only have to do strategy every five years or so. Before the Internet is was every decade, at most.

    After that strategic direction is set (and hopefully left alone by all the strategy drones running around in most firms) marketing is, or should be, completely tactical, and focus on measurable activities -- specifically lead generation (if there's a direct sales model) and lowering the cost of sales.

  •  
    39

    wkshui

    04/27/09 | Report as spam

    RE: The 4 P's of Marketing=Fuzzy Brain BS

    Re: 35
    But in the hands of good marketer, who knows how to set his objectives right...Specific, attainable and measurable... one still can hit the jackpot!

  •  
    40

    ermintham

    04/30/09 | Report as spam

    Pull Strategy?

    mayb that's why sales isn't in the equation.

    if the products are marketed properly, customers will automatically buy your products.

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