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Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

November 20th, 2008 @ 6:56 am

43 Comments

Categories: Strategy

Tags: Detroit, Advantage, General Motors Corp., Silverman, Taxes, Channel Management, Public Relations, Free Trade, Financial Planning, Finance

Most of us can agree that three CEOs asking for federal bailout money in Washington D.C., cups in hands,  shouldn’t arrive on three huge corporate jets.  But nasty public relations aside, should American automakers receive a $25 billion check from taxpayers?

For two heroically divergent views on the subject — and to get your own thinking sharpened on this matter — check out Harvard Business Publishing blogs by entrepreneur David Silverman (Bail out GM) and  Umair Haque (Don’t bail out GM as we know it).

Silverman’s argument is that if you see a dog is about to be run over by a truck, you don’t just stand there and shout “Sorry, survival of the fittest!” You rescue the dog and go from there.

“Business isn’t about evolution, it’s about existing lives,” Silverman writes. “If we can spare some suffering, why wouldn’t we?”

Haque thinks there is no room for a handout from Uncle Sam if it doesn’t prepare the company to compete in the 21st century. The “old” Detroit failed to invest in talent, people, and imagination; created product lines with little difference; and built networks of suppliers and dealers that were naturally antagonistic rather than cooperative. Why reward a failed model?

“In the 21st century,” he writes, “what’s far more radical, potent, and disruptive is corporations who can use market power to create an authentic advantage for buyers, suppliers, customers, consumers, and society, not against them — one where everyone is made durably better off. That’s a sea change in the nature of advantage: from advantage against all, to advantage for all.”

What’s your opinion?  If you could allocate where your personal tax dollars flow, would you send some to Detroit?


 
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  •  
    1

    scca6

    11/20/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    Well, I guess I'll choose compassionate, although it's cuckoo, also. But I can't understand how an entire industry can blindly continue as it has over the last two decades when their primary raw material has a finite supply and is purchased from one's enemies. Gas prices then go thru the roof and no one has a backup plan. Everyone is caught with their pants around their ankles. Wait, I'm changing my mind...maybe I choose cuckoo.

  •  
    2

    renovicelli

    11/20/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    There needs to be more definitive study of the trickle effect discussed by the "Big 3". If they want US government to bail them out with tax dollars then provisions need to be made that they switch to US suppliers, "trim the fat" and provide fair compensation for reasonable work. Time served should not predicate wage increased. Like most of the world performance is key and from the look of the current situation, cruise control has been on too long without anyone truly taking their foot off the gas and swerving around the pitfalls.

  •  
    3

    redmondsp@...

    11/20/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    Keep in mind. . . They're not asking for a "bailout". . . but rather a bridge loan.

  •  
    4

    scanf

    11/20/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    American Automobiles are the lowest quality in the developed world. I would only be caught dead driving Ford, even worse Chrysler. Everyone knows this. The "big three" never did anything for the little guy, only themselves (remember Tucker?). American automobile unions are some of the most corrupt in the USA. They are also some of the biggest & least environmentally friendly.

    Recession is a time to clean house, scrape the cruft and let it burn. Burn baby, burn.

  •  
    5

    tedjagen

    11/20/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    I agree the public relations of the big 3 was deplorable. The true attitude of the CEO's was shown when they had no plan on how to use the money for success of the company. The management of these companies, along with union leaders fail understand what is needed to make these companies succeed. My position is remove all top management and put managers in charge that can move the company into the 21st century. I do believe we need to assist them, however chop the head of the monster and provide a way for the companies to move forward and build a product that someone wants to buy. Look at GM, they are coming out with a 2009 Hummer, only 2300 Hummers were sold this year. Why build an expensive product no one will purchase. Any other company producing products no one wants would not be in business.

  •  
    6

    tedjagen

    11/20/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    Fine, give them a 25B bridge loan at the interest that people who had bed credit would pay, 21%.

  •  
    7

    carburner

    11/20/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    Compassion is meant for those less capable. Hmm, Detroit has been without compassion or concern for the past thirty five years. They have had no thought for the environment or consumer pocket books. They are an anachronism worthy of nothing but scorn. Big labor should be included in the bag. Off with their heads.

  •  
    8

    jlvelez

    11/20/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    In response to Silverman, hell yes its about survival of the fittest! Its business, if you want to be compassionate then go volunteer.

    Besides, his example was pretty poor. There is no business decision required to save a dog from getting run over, unless you get an important business call at that same moment.

    business is all about evolution, the most competitive wins, period. That is free market capitalism.

  •  
    9

    stockflyer

    11/20/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    I have a unique perspective on this, since I actually own a small business that is right across the street from the GM Tech Center in Warren, MI. I am not a supplier to GM, but due to the problems in the area, I will be closing my shop in the next 2-3 months if nothing changes. My sales are off 30% from last year, down over 60% from just 3 years ago.

    The biggest trouble that these large enterprises have, Auto, Defense, Aerospace, and a few others is that most of the laws in this country are built to make them operate at a disadvantage. They are forced to work with unions, and when they try to fight the unions, congress steps in and makes the laws even more onerous. What most people don't understand is that GM and others pay a large part of the retirees costs and the Toyota's in the US never assumed those costs, they have already passed those onto the the Federal Govt by letting everyone take advantage of the largese of our retirement system. GM, Ford, Chrysler if they go bankrupt will transfer their costs to the Fed govt, and we will end up paying for more than 25 Billion.

    Also, our govt is doing everything in its power to prohibit manufacturing in this country. Most countries protect their auto industry by not letting the US to ship vehicles to them. China requires the auto makers to set up co-owned factories in China to sell in China. Why don't we require every toyota, honda, etc. to be co-owned by one of the Big Three. That would be fair. Japan through their trade laws practically bans imports into their country. Our guys are playing on a very unfair and unlevel field and now that they are down we want to kick them and call them stupid?

    GM actually has a very strong business in the rest of the world, the world financial crisis has just created a tight model right now.

    Here is what we need to do:

    1. Provide the bridge loan. - same reason why we are giving money to the banks - liquidity and cash flow.

    2. Change trade laws to match our "partners." With China, we require the same deals they make us live with. With Korea, we tack on a massive fee. And so on. We should be focused on Fair Trade, not Free Trade.

    3. Federal laws need to be refined and reflect the current state of need, vs. the need in the 50's and 60's.

  •  
    10

    davereynolds

    11/20/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    I would like to see the jobs of these auto workers saved as would many people. That is what the bailout is really all about. The problem is that these jobs are over paid to people who, in many instances, have their job not because they possess the needed skill or knowledge but because they have the most seniority. If you have ever been to one of the GM, Ford, or Chrysler plants then you have seen the waste, waste, and more waste. All the money that has been paid to top level management and the wasteful union has got the auto makers where they are today. It just may be that letting them fall might be the best thing that could happen to free enterprise. If your kid gets in trouble and ends up in jail you let him sit and think about it. He or she will not learn if you bail them out. Think about it!

  •  
    11

    ghatbkk

    11/20/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    Let them fail. Bailing them out just means that the crash down the road will be bigger (does anyone really believe that GM is going to change into a competitive company because of this bailout? If so, I got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya.).

  •  
    12

    ghatbkk

    11/20/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    "GM actually has a very strong business in the rest of the world, the world financial crisis has just created a tight model right now."

    It does? Funny thing, I live in another part of the world, and GM sucks here too.

  •  
    13

    ecoface

    11/20/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    The challenge the auto makers face is quite simple. They make cars and trucks that are out of step with reality. They should be making a better car/truck that consumes less fuel, pollutes less and doesn't cost the price of a house in 1975.

    The auto manufactures and maybe their customers seem to have forgotten the lessons of the oil embargo on the 70s. Then, we were all driving big bulky tanks. The Japanese gave us the Datsun and the Toyota - fuel efficient, practical and pragmatic. Did North Americans learn anything from those two manufacturers? I would say not. Today, most of the car/truck ads sell ???muscle and torque.???

    An earlier post indicated that GM is release a 2009 Hummer. What for???? It's a small penis gas guzzler.

    The big three automakers are in trouble because they don't listen (and don't care I assume) to what's important - the customer.

    Sell us cars that are well made, fuel efficient (not the highest horsepower/higher torque) and stylist. If you need help, look at the Japanese...They get it. The only reason their sales are down is because consumers can't get credit.

    Should these clowns get a bailout? Yes! The real disaster is the collapse of Mr. and Mrs. Mainstreet; the bailout is for the greater good of the working man and woman.

    Will the head clowns get it? No!! They proved it by showing up in DC on their elitist private jets without a reasonable plan on how to fix this mess.

    The human race never learns from history! Ever!

    Thanks

    Bernie

  •  
    14

    rajanrn

    11/20/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    I believe that the quantum of loan should be
    just enough for these companies to tide over
    any immediate (cash flow) crisis and nothing
    more. After all its also a matter of
    livelihoods of people. But in the long run
    these events will be seen as "disruptive
    changes" and those companies that survive thru
    this and successfully move their businesses
    forward will emerge to be great businesses and
    visionary companies. Let all the rest perish!

  •  
    15

    scanf

    11/20/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    In response to stockflyer, fair trade is a dream. Indian companies will continue to undermine world IT and design services with low wages and pirate software. China will continue to destroy the rest of the world's manufacturing with slave labor, environmental abuse and IP(intellectual property) theft. The USA will continue to tolerate consumerism-trageted scams like Wal*Mart ("made in the USA - LOL"), meanwhile hoping "friendly" trade relations with a legalized mofia like the Chinese party bosses will bring peace to the world.

    Everyone wants to live in a dream, but dreams cost money and that money has to come from somewhere.

    "As long as that somewhere isn't me"? Dream on.

  •  
    16

    vinhn

    11/20/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    I'm running a branch for a corporation; If we are not profitable, my head is on the line.
    how can congress asks the tax-payer to pay for these bail-out?
    where're the accountibilities for these CEO's? and why should we, as tax-payers pay for their un-deserved salary & bonuses???
    Other successful companies made cut for their executives when their companies are not doing so well, or have their salaries & bonuses tied directly to the company performance.
    when these "Big three" were making great profits....did they ever thought about helping out the tax-payers???
    Their failed planning/bussiness should not be our problem!
    they will have to learn form their failures...

  •  
    17

    lmurph

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    Again, let's all remember the Big Three are looking for a "Bridge Loan" which is a loan for a short duration of time. Although a bail out can be a loan, it sometimes does not require reimbursement, for which that term is confusing many people. I wish the media would use the right words.

    Regardless though, it seems that the big three execs now must come up with a plan before they can get anything which is how it should be. It seems both sides (mgmt & employees) need to take concessions. I agree many of the union workers are overpaid, but so are the top execs. Do away with all the wasteful perks. The good old boys days are gone. What amazes me is that they want to downsize. How is that going to help the economy and help them sell cars. Thousands of people have been laid off from the automotive companies and long time suppliers. How are these companies going to become profitable when all the people who bought their cars are now un-employed? I know suppliers who have closed plants here in the US and opened new ones in Mexico. There's your first problem. I can tell you, those people in Mexico don't drive our cars. They're lucky if they have a bike for transportation. As well, many friends in IT departments have lost their jobs because they were replaced by companies from India. My company did that and the few people that they sent from India here to do some work all drive Honda's and such. Our company does (pretty soon did) work for the big three. It seems that if we keep shipping jobs out of this country we will continue to spiral downward. Bring jobs back to America!

  •  
    18

    steveo@...

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    Not Cuckoo -- Idiocy.

    We don't need an economic study to know the "trickle down effects" of the government supporting failing businesses.

    Politicians want to tax citizens across the country who make $20 and hour so that unions in Michigan can force above-market wages of $71 hour.

    If those companies are too big to fail then maybe it's time for politicians to stop taking the side of the UAW.

    All we will do is recreate the "French Economic Miricle."

  •  
    19

    steveo@...

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    Another thing:

    Even people who failed "Introduction to Finance" at their local junior college know that people are lying when they pass this off as a "bridge loan."

    And another:

    The cost disadvantage that the Detroit Three have ensures a gradual erosion of market share. It is predictable and inevitable.

    Companies who have their costs in line are not losing market share now, are they?

  •  
    20

    wccordes1@...

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    I'm sorry for the Big Three, but then again, no I'm not. I bought GM for years and personally experienced quality going down. Then I bought a VW and had no problems. Then I bought a Toyota and love it still. My wife sticks with American and continually regrets it.

    Should we bail them out or should they produce quality like they once did? And if they can't produce quality, then maybe Europe and Asia deserves the business.

  •  
    21

    LucasISG

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    Why not get the bridge loan from Exxon?

  •  
    22

    stevrei

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    Call it whatever you want - if you give them money and call it a loan it's a bailout. The reason the Big Three can't get credit on the open market is because no bank believes they will ever be paid back. The Detroit business model of vertical integration of union shops is broken. Mitt Romney was right - the foreign owned car companies build cars here and make money. Their business model works. The government will end up picking up the Detroit pension obligation no matter what happens. Why not take transfer then entire amount to the PBGC and reorganize for the future ?

  •  
    23

    seansilverthorne@...

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    Great discussion, and very interesting times we are going through. Just think about what's happened in the last few months, everything from the collapse of the great houses of finance on Wall Street, a 50 percent hair cut in many people's rertirement savings, and now talk about whether the American automobile industry can survive even bankruptcy proceedings. And that's just in the US.

    Unfortunately, there is little evidence that all the bailout spending we have done so far has had any positive effect. At what point do we say, time out, let's try for a systematic fix and attack the underlying problems (consumer confidence, etc.) rather than the symptoms (no one buying cars, etc.)

    Sean

  •  
    24

    pgbuckner

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    it's ridiculous to even fathom the idea of a bailout for detroit! get rid of the corruption in the unions first, treat the workers with respect and start designing something that's not embarrassing to drive. the American people aren't buying their junk now so why would they choose to bail them out? Give us a better choice! I say let them all fail. someone with some cash will then go about re-opening the plants and build it back from scratch with a new business model that will work to compete instead of resting on their laurels. Mom & Pop never got bailed out!

  •  
    25

    NicoleinON

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    My brother works for one of the Big Three and I don't want to see him out of work, or millions of others. BUT...the Big Three spent untold amounts of money over the last 25 years lobbying Washington to prohibit legislation that would require them to make safer, more fuel-efficient cars. If they had money for that s**t, they have money to retool themselves. And if they don't, f**k it, let the Japanese take over.

    Although, since I do expect they're going to get the bailout anyway, I support the Democrat's plan with LOTS of strings attached. Accountability, transparency, and personal responsibility are suddenly in vogue. Man, it must suck to be a rich/conservative/Republican/Big 3 CEO these days...

  •  
    26

    clarkm

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    This is not about compassion, just plain common sense. Our immediate experience with the current gov't bailout program is that these loan dollars aren't being used as the gov't had intended and I would not expect the auto manufacturers to do any different. The intro to this artical says it all, these idiots each took their own private plane to a meeting to ask for the taxpayer's money.

    The auto industry has been given regulatory breaks from the gov't for decades under the premise that it was necessary for them to remain comptetitive. Yet they've done nothing proactive to change their business or products. Don't tell me that we can put men on the moon, at the bottom of the ocean now maybe on Mars but our cars still get less than 30 miles to the gallon. It's like the problem child, if you keep bailing them out they'll never change. Then the dumb parent scratches their head and asks :why, after all I've done for them, do they continue to be bad?". Gee, let me think...

  •  
    27

    rockymtnrick

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    Sorry, but the bail-out is bass ackwards. No amount of money given these short-sighted and unimaginative companies will create CUSTOMERS! Sure, our tax money could put these beasts on life support, but their businesses will still fail unless they can attract customers with the quality and price of their products. If we reward these buggy-whip companies they will simply continue the thought processes that got them here in the first place. The big three have been in decline for years and have done little if nothing to rescue themselves prior to the finance meltdown. To call this a ???loan??? forgets that these companies weren???t thriving before this mess, and that makes it unlikely they will recover because of our generosity.
    It will be very painful for all of us either way, so let???s let them die. If there is a market for American autos the industry will resurrect itself stronger and leaner.
    The same goes for my home state of Michigan. The people there are responsible for their own decline. They aren???t less intelligent than other Americans, but they got used to the union-driven wages and benefits driving the wages and benefits for all industries???not just auto. After years and years of high taxes, socialist policies and a terrible economy, it didn???t take a genius to predict Michigan???s future. As for Detroit, it will become an interesting post-mortem model for social and economic scientists.

  •  
    28

    sweetkarma75

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    I believe that if we invest in a company - and
    that is how we need to look at it - we need to
    ensure it will be competitive in its market
    space. I believe a bailout should be tied to
    mandates that they must retool for - and train
    their workforce on ??? products that minimize oil
    demand and focus on sustainable renewable
    energy, which results in more jobs and a
    workforce prepared for the challenges speeding
    toward us in the next decade or two. Who would
    ??? in their right mind ??? invest in a failed or
    outdated business model? Not me. But I see
    potential...

  •  
    29

    dennis.wengert@...

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    The lack of money is not the issue here...it's the culture of these three companies that has led them all down a path of decline. A culture that has arrogantly made them believe they they could continue to dictate the tastes of consumers and the direction of a market.

    The reason they were so successful two to three decades ago, is that Americans had few other choices, so we bought the crap that Detroit was dishing out. Then, the Japanese came along, followed by the Koreans, and the Europeans finally started getting their act together. Once we had the choice to purchase something that was actually reliable, had a reasonable amount of quality and economy, and lasted longer than the payment book, we voted with our wallets. Meanwhile, the Big Three continued to overpay for labor and underperform in product evolution, innovation and strategic vision. NOTHING HAS CHANGED!

    Until the culture within these organizations goes through a complete transformation, no amount of money thrown at them will make a difference.

    Thinks about it. With their combined cash burn each month, $25 billion will last about 4 or 5 months. Does anyone REALLY think they can turn anything around in that amount of time, especially when many consumers are hesitant to buy ANYTHING right now that represents a long term financial commitment, AND the current recession is projected to last well into the second half of 2009? Where are their U.S. customers going to come from?

    Mark my words, if we give them the first dollar, we'll be into this for at least $100 billion. It's mortgaging our future for a house of cards because these companies will never be financially liquid enough to pay any loans back. It's folly to believe otherwise. And, with that much debt, where will they be able to get any commercial credit for operations after they burn through our tax dollars?

  •  
    30

    kgilson

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    We seem to head for dramatic headlines. Why did the word "bailout" get chosen? If the banks were making business loans, then we wouldn't be discussing this. It is true that the auto industry needs to rethink their model: why do we have a Ford Explorer and a Mercury Mountaineer when they are the same vehicle? And it is not just Detroit. Toyota is pushing its gas-guzzling large pick-ups while we are focused on their Prius. I vote for getting the companies the money that they need to continue in production along with the plan for restructuring so that they use the money wisely. Ford has been doing some of this while GM hasn't that I know about.

  •  
    31

    Jaindochin

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    Hey, if we can build the stealth fighters and bomber and the F22 Raptor (the most advanced fighter in the world), then we have adequate engineering talent. Why is it then that we can't build a car with a short turning radius? Is it that Detroit doesn't care or they are hampered with unions and foreign automobile trade regulations? Why can't we understand that the unfair trades sanctions and the unions are killing an American industry. H. Ford wouldn't believe what is happening.

  •  
    32

    kbaker8

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    This is a transcript of a coversation between a friend and I. Needless to say we get in some heated arguements.....I thought it would be suiting to share.

    K:

    I have to admit that after the election I was heavy on the hope band wagon. I just wanted to believe so bad that somebody could ???do??? something in this world different then was is already being done. So far his first two moves ( high positions for previous Clinton boys and backing huge bailouts for the fledgling auto industry ) really aren???t doing it for me. It???s sucks, it???s still wait and see obviously he needs time, but I just don???t know that propping up an industry that you know as well as I do shot ITSELF in the foot, is good business. I know he wants ( needs ) to preserve those jobs but this is what I am talking about. This has been done before. Let???s pour money to support a company to support jobs. The equation just doesn???t work. Even if they provided incentives for existing strong business to expand their productivity to absorb some of the job losses that would be at least slightly more favourable. I am all in favour in buying out people, but not the auto industry. After all this can you believe I supported the bailout? Lol. Still do.

    D:

    America needs big auto. Plain and simple. I heard in the next 2 years if conditions continue as forecast, the amount of job losses would be equal to a city the size of Denver. Why don???t they just fire everyone in Denver instead?

    K:

    Realistically there two options for their failure.



    1) GM, Chrysler and Ford consolidate, renegotiate and move forward with a new mandate as a technology heavy company.

    2) Honda/Toyota buy them out. I find it hard to believe that they would not continue a well established brand with still relatively massive sales output. Yes, thing will be different ( I get giddy at the idea of the day they would dissolve the unions) but most of the US operations would stay somewhat intact.



    A ???failure??? of the auto industry does not mean that it goes up in a poof of smoke, and everyone is out of a job. Yes, in a way you are right. America does need the auto industry. But it does not need a leach on the government and on society, one that is using the economic crises and the fear surrounding it to support itself while for AT LEAST the last 4-5 years it knew exactly where it was heading and how fast. Do I think that the crises may have precipitated a quicker demise? Yes. But nothing like the sudden losses from the financial sector, immediately and noticeable hit by a specific event ??? the housing bubble. What America needs is a large and strong industry that supports ???good??? paying jobs, not grossly mismanaged, hand on the balls of the company paying jobs.



    ??? The average compensation received by employees in . . . motor vehicles and equipment manufacturing in 2001, was $69,500. In fact, the average compensation per employee nationwide in 1998 only reached $43,500. The average job in the automotive manufacturing sector was compensated at a level 60 percent higher than the average U.S. job. ??? - Economic Contribution of the Automotive Industry to the U.S. Economy 12 ??? An Update



    Dare I mention that most of the people receiving these incomes are under educated, and under skilled? Relatively unemployable anywhere else at their current standard of education? The US economy does not need to bailout the auto industry again, and again and again ( in the early to mid eighties and early two thousand and now?) to keep its self healthy. It needs a new diet. Radical thinking and new idea???s is what I wanted to see some this administration. So far all I can see is the same old same old.



    As for the job issue.



    ???The United States Census Bureau estimates that the population of the City and County of Denver was 588,349 on July 1, 2007...???



    Your telling me that the US economy, cannot absorb half a million jobs with the right marketing? I promise you they can absorb that and more.

    D:

    Duh!



    Of course the comp. is going to be higher for the average auto worker harder work etc. These people pay the highest tax *(therefore subsidizing the underachievers) and also have higher discretionary income, to keep retailers and the economy afloat.



    Since when did earning more than average become a bad thing???



    Oh wait I know, the same day nit witted Marxists took over our universities and places of higher learning.

    K:

    Work harder in what respect? To you or me? Or the person slugging it at a non-unionized factory? Sorry Dan but I have had experience in a factory at Ford and I have to tell you that they do not work any harder then someone making half as much money. What they do have is the literal death grip on the company via their union bosses. Paying people more then what their worth and more then what the business can afford is bad business plain and simple. People who make bad business decisions need to suffer the consequences - failure.



    As for the whole Marxist philosophy I suppose if in some respect I was advocating taking the difference in their salaries and distributing it among the ???people??? that could be a rational commentary but it???s not at all what I am saying. Pay people what their worth. Make a product that is worth the money it costs to buy, understand the power of advertising and don???t underestimate competition. THEN you take the money that you have saved and you I don???t know... reinvest it in the company to make it stronger? Humm.. I didn???t go to Harvard or anything but I think that makes sense. Dollars and cents. wink.



    All discretionary spending is wasted in vain if the company supplying it takes that plus +++ out in bailouts. This is not an auto industry phenomenon. With the right retooling that capital can still exist where ever these workers go.

  •  
    33

    CMMER

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    We as a country have created this vicious cycle. We flip-flop as a nation on whether we should create CAFE standards and put that "onerous" burden on carmakers (and chastise states for trying to lead on the issue). Then we push expensive labor and management legislation onto big corporations (think Sarbanes-Oxley et al). Meanwhile we don't have the stomach for regulation on healthcare/insurance that drive up compensation expenses. Then we let OPEC manipulate our entire economy with one pricing lever rather than creating price floors/ceilings so that we can have cheap gasoline.

    These government actions/inactions have created a business environment that is incompatible with the rest of the world. The big question is how are the big three going to change in order to overcome their governmental handicap? Businesses are predictable - they maximize wealth in a given environment.

    We shouldn't rebuke corporations for asking the government for shortcuts - we should punish the government for granting them.

  •  
    34

    gcfla

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    I would love to let these companies go under, which is what they deserve for the poor management decisions that have been made for years. But, this country can't handle the devastation that it will bring. It would be too much of a burden on the average consumer, and that is the sad reality. So, I say bailout w/strings attached, like firing every single one of those guys who flew to DC in their corporate jets. FORCE them to change their business model.

    I caught the interview that the GM CEO did on Newshour, and the excuses coming from him were pretty pathetic. It's pretty clear that they are not forward leaning, and only produced cars that people want next year, not five or ten years down the line. For example, GM will be introducing over a dozen new cars that get 30+ mpg next year; well geez - why didn't they do that FIVE YEARS AGO? And btw, the government approved a $25 bn loan for them to retool their production lines to produce more fuel efficient cars. What are they doing with that windfall?

    These guys have got to go NOW, before they can do anymore damage.

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    35

    nw332

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    The dog story does gain people's sympathy. However, what it the dog has a tendency to go in fonrt of trucks all the time and saving it will put your own life in danger? That is exactly the case here. Once the 3 auto makers are saved, soon all companies from the whole country will gather for tax payers' money and where do you cut the line? Just look at all the financial instituions rushing to become a bank in order to get Treasury funding you will see it defeinitely will happen.

    The 3 auto makers in reality are already in terminal illness, so they will not have a turn around plan. Whatever money you throw at them is going into an endless pit. This is the time the government should look forward to some industries what US will gain competitive advantage, instead of some out of date industries. However, talking about vision, that is something serious missing in the current administration.

    If the govenrment feels the 3 auto makers can not go bust due to the number of employees involved, the right way is to seize those companies and fire all the executives and gradually selling them piece by piece to othre auto makers who can survive.

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    36

    rockymtnrick

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    There will be no end to this.

    After the auto companies, then who? We will be bailing out (you can't call it a loan when there is no hope of repayment) company after company and industry after industry. Steel? Lumber? Oil (at less than $50/barrel, they are next)? Health? Detroit? Houston? Los Angles? Florida?

    If this continues, no one will know when to say "no."

  •  
    37

    MikeP219

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    I did not see this much attention paid to the CEO's of AIG, Chase, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Talk about failed management costing the taxpayers billions. How many millions will the likes of Greenberg and Dimon cost us. Individually, thier compensations equal the big three combinied. Again, why don't we see more about their lucrative failed practices.

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    38

    john.rodriguez.jr@...

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    Cuckoo DEFINATELY..red herring, snowball effect and halo effect are just three falacies working to gain 'American's' trust not just by the big 3 but the conservative deep pockets as well. In the US class wars have never been more evident than they are today but no one seems to be talking about them. My mom and dad have bought GM auto's their entire lives, in fact this week they just purchased an overpriced junk heap (2009 3/4 ton suburban...special ordered). Talking with them this week they are hopeful of the Government bridge loan. After explaining to them the business environment that has existed for over the last 30 years in these companies they suddenly realized that they, yes again, were dupped into buying the conservative slam them to the ground ******** that they were fed in the early 80's. My mom (graduate degree in education) was beside herself at how manipulative these companies were being. The thing that bothered her the most was that the companies continue to prey upon class as a red herring from the issues that their models of business and ethics are still broken. I'm truly sad for all of those that will lose their jobs and even more worriesome of the same and similar business models being used by Private 'Not for Profit' health and medical industries. Let the big three burn to the ground...maybe the soil will make way for new growth, a solid benefit for all.

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    39

    lnddrake

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    Does anyone not see the socialist aspect of all these bailouts. I am a child of the 70's. I remember the gas lines.

    My father worked tool and die in the auto industry. My mom stayed home and raised us and they had tons enough money to do what ever they chose. They now afford a very comfortable retirement. My brother has spent 30 years and is out. Same thing.

    I am in IT and until three years ago I spent my entire career in auto. I fought the onslought of offshoring and finally decided that it would be very smart to reskill away from the auto industry. I initially cut my wages and benefits to a part time $10 an hour job with no benefits. I have almost completed an accelerated curriculum to update my skills and I am now working full time in education for less then 1/2 what I was making in the auto industry. My retirement is gone, my credit S**Ks and my family continues to suffer but I have a job.

    The point of this story is... how much sympathy would motivate the auto industry to make a change? How dumb do you have to be to? Until 3 years ago my livelyhood depended on the industry and I saw the writing on the wall! Seems almost mean to sybolically cover the message so other can't see and change their ways.

    Don't buy America.... Train and educate America!

  •  
    40

    ndlicht1

    11/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    No bailout. Ever hear of Dugans Bread? No? Thats because although they were one of the largest suppliers of to the home deliveries in NYC, the unions demmanded way too much. The owners of the company closed the doors and said no to their outrageous demmands for pay to drive a van.

    Our auto makers have killed themselves off with poor quality, gas guzzlers, giant salaries, stupid inept management and Union give aways. Good by and good riddance.

    I love my Toyota.

  •  
    41

    bshepard

    11/24/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    Mixed Feelings both compassion & cuckoo. Everyone does deserve a second chance. Whenever I think about the old slogan "The Heartbeat of America" and look at what is going on with the Big Three it seems like heart disease has set in and bypass surgery is now necessary...We can't just let them die..Might need to evaluate all factors that escalated the disease...like the Unions...

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    42

    Stephen Isienyi

    11/25/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    Whether the Big3 should live or die should not be a matter of compassion or cuckoo. It should be a matter of what is more conducive for the economic health of this country and the globe as a whole.

    Talking about the Big3 as though one is talking about human beings amuses me. The Big3 are three giant corporations run by human beings (presidents, board of directors, CEOs, and their corporate managers). Therefore, human beings are to be held accountable for creating and executing flawed business models and strategies all these years. One example, in the case of GM, is keeping employees whose compensation is much more than the free-economy would allow. This means that GM execs expended resources naturally intended for the fortification of its distinctive competencies on supposedly "mundane" issues like employee remuneration and pension.

    If anything, let us support the bridge loan deal this time only for the sake of stabilizing our economy - but with metal strings attached, of course. Their business models and corporate cultures need to improve so much to a point that (efficiency, quality, innovation and customer responsiveness) are the only thing flowing through their veins - even if it means relieveing some individuals of their posts in order to curb misoneism.

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    43

    Josh10k@...

    11/26/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Detroit Bailout: Compassionate or Cuckoo?

    History dooms us again! From Wikipedia:

    British Leyland was a vehicle manufacturing company formed in the United Kingdom in 1968 as British Leyland Motor Corporation Ltd (BLMC). It was partly nationalised in 1975 with the government creating a new holding company called British Leyland Ltd which became BL Ltd (later BL plc) in 1978. It incorporated much of the British owned motor vehicle industry, and held 40% of the UK car market, with roots going back to 1895.

    Despite containing profitable marques such as Jaguar, Rover and Land Rover, as well as the best selling Mini, British Leyland had a troubled history. In 1986 it was renamed as the Rover Group, later to become MG Rover Group, which went bankrupt in 2005, bringing an end to mass car production by British owned manufacturers - with MG becoming part of Chinese Nanjing Automobile.

    Jaguar and Land-Rover (Land-Rover previously owned by BMW) were sold in March 2008 by Ford to TATA Motors of India, who also bought the three brand names: Daimler, Lanchester, and Rover - the intellectual property rights for which had been bought by Shanghai, Nanjing bought MG brand.

    As far as "human beings" goes, the US has always treated corporations as humans - rights and all. Maybe that's the real root of this problem.

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