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Madoff Gets 150 Years: Is Fraud Worse Than Murder?

June 29th, 2009 @ 12:02 pm

18 Comments

Categories: Board Management, Corporate Governance, Executive Ethics, Executive Focus, Finance, Management, Opinion, Private Equity, Regulation, Wisdom

Tags: Bernard Madoff, Fraud, White Collar Crime, Ponzi Scheme, Burt Ross, Dante, Judge Denny Chin, Steve Tobak

As crimes go, we don’t usually think of fraud in the same way we think of violent crimes like murder and rape. But one of Bernard Madoff’s victims sees it differently.

In a statement to Judge Denny Chin, former Fort Lee N.J. mayor Burt Ross, who lost $5 million in the scam, wrote, “Seven hundred years ago, the Italian poet Dante in The Divine Comedy recognized fraud as the worst of sins, the ultimate evil.”

Speaking outside the courtroom, Ross further expounded on his Dante reference:

“Fraud is the worst sin of all because it violates God’s gift to mankind, which is love. And so in the lowest depths of hell, Dante placed not those who committed violent acts, but those who violated trust.”

“I urged the judge to sentence him for the rest of his life, so that when he leaves prison, which means after his death, virtually unmourned by anyone on this earth, that he will then go down to the depths of hell where he will join those other people who are in the ‘mouth of satan.’”

If you read Madoff’s victim’s statements referenced in a USA Today story, you get an overwhelming dose of the financial, emotional, and in some cases, physical destruction that Madoff’s $50 billion Ponzi scheme wrought on his countless victims. In that sense, I got a feeling for Ross’s and Dante’s sentiment and why Judge Chin sentenced Madoff to 150 years.

As for whether fraud of this magnitude is worse than violent crime, that’s a heavy duty moral issue and I’m not much of a philosopher. But that’s just me. What do you think? Is white collar fraud of this magnitude finally being prosecuted and adjudicated as it should have been all along? And if so, where do you draw the line? White collar crime is committed every day, but there are only a handful of Enrons and Madoffs.

 
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  •  
    1

    ric822

    06/29/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Madoff Gets 150 Years: Is Fraud Worse Than Murder?

    While I get the whole "175 Years sends a message" thing, life without parole would have been just as effective. The sentence is more about media coverage and making a point than it is realistic justice. While he should be punished, this is a mob rules sentence to placate the masses.

    I find it ironic that when a thief like Bernard Madoff does it, we call it a Ponzi scheme, but when the Government uses the same financial principles, we call is Social Security.

  •  
    2

    ric822

    06/29/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Madoff Gets 150 Years: Is Fraud Worse Than Murder?

    While I get the whole "175 Years sends a message" thing, life without parole would have been just as effective. The sentence is more about media coverage and making a point than it is realistic justice. While he should be punished, this is a mob rules sentence to placate the masses.

    I find it ironic that when a thief like Bernard Madoff does it, we call it a Ponzi scheme, but when the Government uses the same financial principles, we call it Social Security.

  •  
    3

    boydroge

    06/29/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Madoff Gets 150 Years: Is Fraud Worse Than Murder?

    Investors motivated by greed lost money to a greedy man?

    I only know the basics of the case & fraud is wrong, full stop. But I think the fact that those very investors crying wolf don't get looked at says something about society in America. Had they taken responsibility for their investments, surely they would have seen that this didn't add up? If we each take true responsibility for ourselves & are not greedy very rarely are these types of things allowed to happen? Of course, times were good and people who invest $5 million don't even look at the details?


  •  
    4

    mrfyzz

    06/30/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Madoff Gets 150 Years: Is Fraud Worse Than Murder?

    I completely concur with boydroge. Committing fraud is unquestionably a terrible act, however we must ask is the victime truly a victim of fraud, or a victim of greed? What was Bernie offering/selling? Why would anyone after the Enron issue place $5 million with a single entity? It certainly makes for good media, but why aren't the hard questions being asked? Why are people claiming they are out on the streets because of Madoff? Who invests like this?

    I have invested in companies that have gone bankrupt, losing thousands of dollars, however nobody went to jail and I never was forced to live on the streets. This is a societal issue more than a criminal one! Greed pointing the finger at greed.

  •  
    5

    upshift

    06/30/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Madoff Gets 150 Years: Is Fraud Worse Than Murder?

    I agree with both the sentence and the sensationalism of the
    "150 years".

    While the media makes a big deal of violent crimes, the fact
    of the matter is that white collar, non-violent, crime may be
    several orders of magnitude worse in terms of the feelings of
    hopelessness and frustration, as well as the actual loss of
    money, that victims experience.

    If you only want to quantify the loss in dollars of white collar
    crime, then all combined home/bank/ store robberies and auto
    thefts in the US probably don't amount to 10% of the loss of
    dollars due to white collar, non-violent, crime.

    I am hoping that future potential con "persons", (being politically correct here), will stop and think that if they get
    caught that they may receive more than a "slap on the
    wrist".

    To reply #3, if you don't get your auto fixed properly does
    that mean that you should have been an automotive
    mechanic?

  •  
    6

    squeezewhiz

    06/30/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Madoff Gets 150 Years: Is Fraud Worse Than Murder?

    in recent years, white collar criminals have gone away for longer than violent criminals. But pitchfork populists like to keep the canard alive that its club fed for these miscreants. Its not. also, read interesting theory recently that most white collar punishments are actually disproportionate to the crime because the consequences of incarceration are often more dire, e.g., ostracism by your community (regular thugs might be taken out for a drink when they return to their communites), inability to ever practice in your profession (e.g., spitzer, pewee herman, etc., etc.).

  •  
    7

    brad_parker

    06/30/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Madoff Gets 150 Years: Is Fraud Worse Than Murder?

    ...the fact of the matter is that white collar, non-violent, crime may be several orders of magnitude worse in terms of the feelings of hopelessness and frustration, as well as the actual loss of money, that victims experience...

    I would disagree here with upshift and their statement above. If you really want to experience the depths of depression, hopelessness, and frustration, try looking over your shoulder the rest of your life after your assailant walks out of jail after an absurdly short time and vows to kill you. Or try losing a child or a wife to a rapist/murderer. Or try recovering from a gun shot wound suffered when you were robbed.

    There is no way that being a victim of white collar crime is "several orders of magnitude worse" than being a victim of violent crime.

  •  
    8

    Reyraz

    06/30/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Madoff Gets 150 Years: Is Fraud Worse Than Murder?

    Get him behind bars for the rest of his life. Make him write a book on this kind of fraud he had committed with all the details how he did it. If the book becomes a best seller, who knows, perhaps it might partially assuage the hurt that this crime had on so many people. By educating people how this Ponzi scheme works will lessen the number of victims. After all we can't question his authority being past chairman of NASDAQ.

  •  
    9

    Romano4444

    06/30/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Madoff Gets 150 Years: Is Fraud Worse Than Murder?

    I don't think this man is a criminal. He is a result of times of economical crisis. What do you expect of Bernard Madoff? A miracle? In a completely negative market he pursued an exit to give the money back to the investors. The government gave billions to the real bandits of AIG, banks, investment companies and not a penny to Madoff's investment fund. They pay to a goat. The goat is called Bernard Madoff. Of course 150 years is a injustice.

    Romano
    UFSP, Brasil

  •  
    10

    Jim__Johnson

    06/30/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Madoff Gets 150 Years: Is Fraud Worse Than Murder?

    It is not a "heavy duty moral issue" for me. and I don't think it takes a philosopher. Another way to pose the question is:
    "Is Fraud off 1300 people's savings Worse Than Murder? "
    He didn't "fraud" one person, he "frauded" many? I see him getting only a few months per victim, served sequentially. We can only hope they put him in a hellhole rather than one of those fruity white collar country clubs. Let him rot as long as possible. and any accomplices that float to the top of the toilet. I'm tired of us treating our human slime like wayward pre-teens.

  •  
    11

    raptor123

    07/01/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Madoff Gets 150 Years: Is Fraud Worse Than Murder?

    Well as a brit I am very impresed that the USA is so advanced that a man of his age will potentially live for a further 150 years happy
    Of course the numbers make a nonsence of the whole matter and is designed to give out a message, although I am not sure what the message is. Far better I would have thought for a whole of life sentence without parole and then think about how that sentance is to be served in such a way to prove to be a deterrent to others.
    Always difficult attempting to balance one crime against another, too many variables involved. It could be that someone who looses all their lifes savings ( the amount is not important the value to the individual is ) may take their own life in desperation and so the debate goes on.

  •  
    12

    InBeeAch

    07/01/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Madoff Gets 150 Years: Is Fraud Worse Than Murder?

    Without checking, I suspect the "150 years" is tied to parole hearings. If 12 years then perhaps up for parole in two; again, just guessing.

    To add fuel to the fire, recall that the SEC ignored the whistle blower's tweets. ; - )

  •  
    13

    Phillpottm

    07/01/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Madoff Gets 150 Years: Is Fraud Worse Than Murder?

    A Great Man once said "You can't cheat a honest man;
    just another scoundrel."

    W. C. Fields

  •  
    14

    clarkm

    07/01/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Madoff Gets 150 Years: Is Fraud Worse Than Murder?

    I'm not a lawyer but I don't think a life sentence is a legitimate option in a fraud case. Raptor123 makes a mockery of us/US, as if we don't fully recognize that this man will not live another 150 years. Of course it was meant to send a message and we don't really care what you think, that's why we revolted some 200+ years ago. Didn't you get the message? Just kidding of course, I just had to spew the vile so common on blogs these days.

    Mr. Johnson hit the nail on the head, this was not a simple fraud case, it involved an astounding number of people and money. Madoff simply received a series of relatively short sentences for each case. Something I believe is quite common in sentencing. But somehow several folks near the top of this string want to pass blame onto the victims. This is akin to blaming rape victims for dressing or acting provocatively. Doesn't everyone invest for their future, their children's education, retirement??? Does that make us all greedy and subject to illegal acts of theft and deceipt. That's a pretty weak argument. And yes, it is "mob" rule. As a society we base laws on what the vast majority of people think is normal and acceptable behavior.

    I would agree that someone of reasonable intelligence, if they are paying attention, should have recognized something amiss. If it sounds too good to be true then it probably is. But this certainly doesn't lessen the crime.

  •  
    15

    ginadye

    07/01/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Madoff Gets 150 Years: Is Fraud Worse Than Murder?

    I believe that this sentence shows the truth about our values in the U.S. and in society in general. We find the loss of money worse than we find the loss of life.
    I have personally lost a great sum of money once upon a time and yes, I was very devastated, but my life went on. I was able to move on and improve my life once again. If I had lost a person, who was important to my life, at the hands of another, life would go on also, but there would always be a void that could not be filled. I further want to point out that when a life is taken, there is also the liklihood of a great financial loss to the family or loved ones left behind, especially to those not able to purchase life insurance policies.
    I think the sentence given shows that the love of money is more important than the love of life to many people.

  •  
    16

    morganelli

    07/01/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Madoff Gets 150 Years: Is Fraud Worse Than Murder?

    I think we all recognize that violence (especially violence that results in loss of life) is worse than fraud. The issue with Madoff is the NUMBER of his victims. I believe the judge was taking that into account and sending a message to other scam artists that they will be held accountable for not only the fraud but the extent of the fraud. Madoff and others like him are a cancer - spreading relentless destruction upon the body and spirit of its victims.

  •  
    17

    raptor123

    07/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Madoff Gets 150 Years: Is Fraud Worse Than Murder?

    Dear Clarkm loosen up,
    I have visted the USA many times and have American friends. Brits have have a very keen sence of 'humor' with an ability to laugh at our selves. Of course I understand how 150 yrs was given. If if was not Lafayette you would be drinking pints and watching 'telly'. -:)
    I appreciate your point about giving out a message but I fear that such overt posturing is designed more as a political statement rather than robust judicial action; but the law must be seen to be done.
    Perhaps the lesson here is for the regulators to have in place governance arrangements that will prevent this happening for a third time the USA and Europeans take note!

  •  
    18

    sarini

    07/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Madoff Gets 150 Years: Is Fraud Worse Than Murder?

    I believe this is just something that evokes a sensational
    response from the public, a way of telling people that someone
    cares for their hurt. I totally agree with ginadye.
    @morganelli- so would a guy be hanged once for one murder
    and thrice for three?

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