College "A Waste of Time" for Business

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  1

  pt_boss@...

  08/18/08 | Report as spam

  RE: College "A Waste of Time" for Business

  Can you explain the source for your comment "venture capitalists, for instance, tend to prefer their entrepreneurs to drop out of certain schools"? This seems like a dropped one-liner without some kind of backing.
  
  Thanks.

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  2

  ennyman

  08/18/08 | Report as spam

  RE: College

  Society, right or wrong, tends to be fairly superficial in its evaluations of people... You have a degree or you do not. You graduated high school or did not.... etc.
  
  The real need is for people with a little experience who are passionate about being lifelong learners. College degrees donot tell you whether they did a lot or the bare minimum...
  
  BUT, even people who partied for four years got exposed to a lot of things that the high schooler has not encountered. College broadens you, even if only inadvertently in some cases.

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  3

  reneewarren

  08/18/08 | Report as spam

  RE: College

  I agree with ennyman, "College broadens you, even if only inadvertently in some cases." I have a B.A. in communication studies and sociology and i can't quit say that many of the courses I took prepared me for entrepreneurship, but I can say that I learned how to present, how to approach professors for extensions and learned how to live on my own (First time away from home). I acutally wrote a manifesto on this very topic in my 3rd year and submitted it as a term paper. I came back at the top of my class. (My professor secretly agreed with me) Now there is a subject for further debate: The cost of post secondary education versus it's inherent value.

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  Michael Fitzgerald

  08/18/08 | Report as spam

  RE: College

  my comment about VCs wanting their entrepreneurs to drop out of certain schools referred to Stanford, and to an extent MIT and Berkeley. In the case of both MIT and Stanford, well-established entrepreneur competitions with close ties to venture capital communities do sometimes lead to companies taking precedence over finishing a degree.
  
  Michael

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  Michael Fitzgerald

  08/18/08 | Report as spam

  RE: College

  ennyman makes a good point about being broadened by college. But people could be broadened by volunteering, or by having to work for a living. People used to broaden themselves by going abroad, which even with currency differences might be cheaper than four years of tuition and room and board. that ties into reneewarren's question on what is the value of post-secondary education.
  
  I suspect what data exists would show that from an income perspective, it is foolish to pass up college for most people who want to be in business. The real question is, will that change? Will businesses prefer ennyman's passionate, lifelong learners than people who really attend college to fill in their resume?
  
  It's a very different model from what we do now, of course, and it might fail.
  
  Michael

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  eclectos

  08/18/08 | Report as spam

  RE: College

  Having left school pre-college and spent a lot of my time reading, working and learning since then, and having reached a moderately senior position in a large international company, I'm not one to hold the "Holy Piece of Paper" in high regard. Actually, I believe that no-one should be allowed to enter an Institution of Higher Learning until they've spent at least two years doing something that proves their ability to survive in the real world. Not only are far too many graduates untried, but far too many professors have spent their lives cloistered in their ivory towers and have never had to test their pet theories in the school of hard knocks. Theories make for interesting discussions, but rarely hold up when exposed to the cold light of reality. Give me someone who did something over someone who was taught something any day.

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  scohil

  08/18/08 | Report as spam

  RE: College

  As a college drop out / flunk out (I quit, they fired me -- you know how the story goes) who's been working for over two decades in my chosen profession (management consulting), I can say with absolute certainty that no finishing college has in no way hampered my competence or expertise, but it has hurt my employability. For reasons cited above and elsewhere, clients and employers have a need for simple and easy categorization: a degree does that for many of them. Praise be that reference-able success stories with clients do it for others in lieu of a sheepskin.

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  quijanof

  08/18/08 | Report as spam

  RE: College

  I, like scohil, came up through the school of hard knocks. I reached the mid-management level and was very successful. I did alot of volunteering for UW, and other charitable organizations. I served as President of my national association. I ran my business and ran other's businesses. I did this without a degree. Now in my retirement life, I went back to get my degree and now am working on a Masters. Why? Because I can. However, I find that most of college professors are so out of touch with today's business world, that they may be doing more hard than good. Why do I say this? Because I find myself knowing more than the professor himself. It's good to have a degree (it would have made things easier) but nothing can replace the "school-of-hard-knocks."

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  Michael Fitzgerald

  08/18/08 | Report as spam

  RE: College

  So does the idea of a certification test make sense? rather than a degree, or in addition to a degree?
  
  Michael

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  the limority report

  08/19/08 | Reported as spam

  How about, SMART BUSINESS INVESTMENT?

  According to Charles Murray, "....a bachelor???s degree tells an employer nothing except that the applicant has a certain amount of intellectual ability and perseverance." Although I disagree that, in a nutshell, this is all a college education ???tells an employer,??? how does ???a certain amount of intellectual ability and perseverance??? equate to ???nothing???? Minimizing and devaluing ???intellectual ability and perseverance??? is disturbing, reducing a college education to nothing more than an idyllic idea or a grand but insignificant concept; however, considering that 50% of students who attend college ultimately drop out, which is also disturbing, I am also not surprised.
  
  In a technologically-advanced society, a quick fix and "instant everything" is valued, let alone glorified. Anyone who puts in the time and effort necessary can purchase study guides, study and memorize for a certification exam and, of course, PASS. This process cuts out the middle man we have come to know as a COLLEGE EDUCATION. Therefore, in my humble opinion, passing a certification exam and then presenting this ???golden ticket??? to me, the prospective employer, only tells me that the applicant is certified in memorization, does NOT have a certain amount of intellectual ability, has nil perseverance, as well as the audacity to apply for a job that others holding two degrees AND various certifications are competing for.
  
  Me, an immigrant child growing up in Los Angeles, CA, I was never told to go to college, but I certainly wish I was. Instead, upon completing high school, it was the ???find a job and contribute financially??? scenario. Now, had college been ingrained in me and a part of my upbringing, one only wonders how that scenario would have played out. In fact, I could have easily been part of the 50% dropout rate. Or I could have grabbed several certification-exam study guides, memorized ???til the cows came home, and received a piece of paper that would have probably left me still wishing that, growing up, I was told to obtain a college education. Not that I struggled financially after high school, but I always wanted a slice of that American college ???apple pie??? that, upon my successful completion, promised it would provide me with a powerful and ever-so valuable piece of paper, which it refers to as a DEGREE, that would allow me access to its society.
  
  Realistically, certification in place of college will most likely have minimal value in an advanced, powerful society that, traditionally and economically, places enormous value on a college education and significant power in the hands of its academic systems. Now, certification IN ADDITION to a college education has marketability that allows one to compete more successfully in today???s complex business world. Granted, I wholeheartedly understand that, in some cases, circumstances, lifestyles, health, motivation, family responsibilities, etc., etc., etc., can impact one???s academic decisions the other hand, firmly anchoring the person in the school of life. And I also know that book smarts and knowledge do not and will never equate to social, life, domestic, communication, problem-solving, anger-management, or critical-thinking skills (to name just a few).
  
  All in all, a college education is not for everyone, but to say that it is a waste of time is not only making an unfounded, sweeping generalization, but is a waste of time itself. Statistically speaking, the more education one has (i.e., degrees), the more likely the person will earn more money over the course of their lifetime. A quality education is not exclusively for the wealthy or privileged; in the U.S., it is within everyone???s grasp, regardless of income, race, creed, religion, age, gender, or social status. Being that I was once a poor immigrant child who set foot on American soil at the age of 5 and did not speak a word of English, I am proof of everything I???ve argued for thus far. I now hold a B.A. and an M.A., and am the founder and owner of a writing/editing company that provides communication services mainly to national and international vendors extend behavioral services to those with developmental disabilities.
  
  College? A waste of time? Hardly. More like a smart business investment. As the saying goes, "the things in life we end up regretting most are not the things we did but the things we did not do."
  
  limor
  2008

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  Michael Fitzgerald

  08/19/08 | Report as spam

  RE: College

  Thanks, Limor, for your thoughtful, articulate post. Thanks also to scohil and eclectos, who have helped give us a nuanced debate on whether college is really meaningful, and under what circumstances it might be more valuable.
  
  Michael

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  JayMel

  08/19/08 | Report as spam

  RE: College

  Fundamentaly, employers are looking for one thing. Can you add value to our company. Over the years, a college degree has somehow become a partial answer to this question. It has not always been this way. In the past, employers often looked to character, experience, reputation, integrity, attitude, and intellegence to get a handle on the basic question.
  
  Obviously there are many professions where it is very difficult to make these evaluations ... e.g. a doctor, lawyer, etc. However, there are many professions where an individual can demonstrate core capabilities without a formal degree and acheive an equal amount of future success.
  
  With college programs costing up to $50,000 per year it is no wonder people are beginning to ask the question, "Is there a better way for me to get a job", or "What other ways can I educate myself that costs less than $150-200k".

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  kennynaks

  08/20/08 | Report as spam

  RE: College

  As this discussion veers towards the practical, quantifiable, and certifiable aspects of schooling, the inherent value of what cannot be measured, quantified, or tested is easily overlooked, in particular, the social aspect of schooling.
  
  It's hard to put a price tag on a liberal arts education when there are no concrete skills to evaluate. However, what you gain from a quality liberal arts degree goes beyond the day-to-day learnings within the classroom, and is about the entire experience from the first day you step on campus. Particularly in residentially-based academic programs, students not only gain the foundations of critical thinking and analysis, but more importantly they are socialized to harness and utilize these skills within the working world. It is this socialization which I cannot stress enough.
  
  As reneewarren mentioned, the college experience teaches students how to interact with those senior to them, how to communicate effectively among peers, even how to manage limited time and resources come crunch time. Perhaps there is a certain disconnect between the academic and real world, but within most white collar jobs, I would think many skills learned in dealing with professors and fellow students can translate into the work place.
  
  Whether a student goes into finance, law, medicine, or even farming, a liberal arts education provides the very basic intellectual abilities to deal effectively with problem-solving situations. Above all, however, without the interaction amongst friends, teachers, mentors, and faculty, the full potential of these abilities go unrealized within a vacuum of book knowledge. This, we cannot quantify. But neither can we ignore.

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  eclectos

  08/20/08 | Report as spam

  RE: College

  As a non-grad myself, when I am looking for new talent of any age, I see the resume as little more than an introduction. The most important part of a resume to me is the way it is put together and the total absence of typos rather than the candidate's education. I try to do a telephone interview with anyone whose resume shows a glimmer of life in the creator. My phone interview is expressly aimed at revealing intelligence, energy, zest for learning and doing, self-confidence without arrogance - all personal characteristics. If a candidate has those and shows a real interest in what we're doing, we can teach them everything they need to know.
  
  Several of my best picks who have gone on to achieve great things never finished or even went to college.

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  the limority report

  08/21/08 | Report as spam

  RE: College

  You're welcome, Michael.
  
  This topic and the questions you've posed have been generating some insightful discussion. I just reread my previous post and realized that it was reported as spam. Perhaps it was the typos that a college-educated person like me should have been careful to avoid, regardless of the relaxed and informal structure of this discussion???
  
  Hey, it was 3am! Simply put, I was tired!

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  Michael Fitzgerald

  08/21/08 | Report as spam

  RE: College

  Anyone can choose to report something as spam. My guess would be that you used all caps in the subject line.
  
  I agree with kennynaks that there are important intangible aspects to college, and to business. It puts the lie to that annoying catchphrase, "if you can't measure it, you can't manage it."
  
  Michael