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America Trains Foreign PhDs, Canada Employs Them

July 22nd, 2008 @ 9:15 am

7 Comments

Categories: Global Trade, Recruiting, Uncategorized

Tags: Visa, America, Blog, Canada, Blogging, Internet, Jessica Stillman

  • America Trains Foreign PhDs, Canada Employs ThemThe Find: The two top feeder schools for American PhD programs are now Chinese universities, but don’t think that just because America trains so many foreign students it will then employ them; instead Canada is trying to attract those that can’t get a visa to work in the States.
  • The Source: The Economist’s Free Exchange blog.

The Takeaway: We wrote last year about the calls of business leaders from Bill Gates to Michael Bloomberg to increase the flow of highly skilled immigrants into the U.S., but it doesn’t seem like the issue is going away. The Economist’s Free Exchange blog points out that,

If you are a PhD student in America, there’s a good chance that your undergraduate degree came from Tsinghua University in China. That’s because Tsinghua and Peking Universities are now the top feeder schools for American PhD programmes…. The increasing dominance of Chinese doctoral students does add to the popular perception that America will someday suffer a shortage of scientists and engineers.

Do these budding scientists and engineers stay in the States after graduation? Not as many as businesses would like. The New York Times reports on the difficulty companies face in getting the H1-B visas used to bring in highly skilled employees for three year terms: “Last year, the agency received enough petitions to cover the annual quota on the first day applications were accepted. About half of the total petitions filed were rejected because the supply of visas had run out.”

Plenty of companies, including Microsoft, have complained that they’re suffering because they can’t get visas for all the highly educated personnel they want to hire. But one group is benefiting from their troubles: Canadian employers. The immigration website for Alberta, Canada is advertising the province as an alternative, permanent home to those frustrated by the temporary U.S. H1-B visa.

The Question: True or False: the U.S. immigration system for skilled workers is broken? If you answered true, how should we fix it?

(Image of aspiring canadian sticker by jslander, CC 2.0)

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  •  
    1

    lisejoan

    07/22/08 | Report as spam

    Living the Frustration...

    I am not Chinese, but I am experiencing the pain caused by the restrictions on the H1 visas in the US. In a few years, it will become evident that the US did harm its economy by letting go of so much brain.
    How do you fix it (your symptom)? OH SO EASY! Let the companies hire, as long as there is room. Keep a quota so you don't throw your citizens out of jobs because of us (Fair enough)... but don't close the door on us.

    What is the REAL problem to be fixed?

    The system right now does not reward honesty in any way.
    The truth is, and the officials need to realize it... if we were able to leave our home country to come into the US or any other nation, it is because we have a spirit of excellence and we are NOT quiters or narrow-minded. We are not desperate to stay in the US because we know the value of our knowledge. We do not need the USA or any nation, but rather the opposite. We are NOT, nor will we ever be a liability to the US economy, but rather, an asset. Ignore us and the next country who values brain and understands its impact on micro- and macro econ will welcome us. We are here because we love this nation, but even more important, we have morals... ethics and we will not compromise.
    Guess what? We'd better get a legal AND moral way to stay here or else, we will leave.
    This leaves the country with immigrants who are taught that to make it, they must go around the law i.e. marriages for "papers", identity theft, illegal immigration.
    It hurts me so much to see that the system would rather make it easier for those who go against or around the law/morals than for those who are trying hard to do the right thing. You'll never hear a million man protest because a SMART scientist or economist was denied a visa, but you'll see people marching across a nation to make illegals legal!!!
    I marvel at the guts that people have to support an immoral cause that defies a nation's laws, rules and regulations. But I remain stupefied at the attention it causes in high levels. Should it even be a question??? a debate? When you have guests at your house for dinner, can they force you to let them stay? If they are so happy at your place, shouldn't it be agreed based on dialogue, even if they came in through the back window and you understood they had needs? Don't you teach your children to go by the house rules? or do you...

    The government should be firm: We will make it possible for you to come the right way. Don't swim across or overstay your visitor visa. If you came the wrong way, show respect for our nation. Leave and come back the right way.

    Teach the people IT IS NOT OKAY to break the law.

    What... I forgot! we're back to being allowed to carry guns to protect ourselves. Back to anarchy... Because the US has failed to teach its population (citizen and non-) the importance of education and higher moral standards and its evident impact on safer neighborhoods.
    10 years from now, all things remaining sine qua none, the USA would have exported too much of its brains out, considering that the higher the education level, the higher is foreign student rate.

  •  
    2

    JBodycomb@...

    07/22/08 | Report as spam

    Does the US need Ph.D.'s or American Ph.D.'s?

    Americans will enter Ph.D. programs when the salary and career prospects on graduation are comparable or better than those offered by other careers. They are not. So, bright, skilled Americans enter other fields such as medicine and finance.

    If it is important that Americans earn Ph.D.'s, careers must be available.

    In the current situation, foreign born Ph.D.'s drive down salaries. American companies have stripped away career stability.

    So, it depends on what is important. If the U.S. needs inexpensive Ph.D.'s, the current policy of permitting immigrants from poor countries to expire a much better standard of living (for them) should continue. If the U.S. needs American Ph.D.s, current policy needs to be reversed for a few decades.

    Which is more important to America? I don't know.

  •  
    3

    sbmack

    07/23/08 | Report as spam

    RE: America Trains Foreign PhDs, Canada Employs Them

    JBodycomb above has it exactly right. My graduate degree is in Operations Research (Applied Mathematics). People with my skill set are hired to be the quant jocks on Wall Street and the modeling wizards who make FedEx run like the well oiled machine that it is. But I got out of hard-core quant even though I love it. Because frankly, there's no money in it. I found myself competing with foreigners who will work for next to nothing for a green card. Given 300 million people and the amount of money we spend on our educational system, there can be no other reason why the United States should not be generating enough native-born Ph.D.'s.

    The politicians woe about Americans being so far down in math and science relative to their international peers. But why should a kid bust his hump on a tremendously challenging analytic track, when there is a lot more money to be made in marketing or law where the demands on your math skills stop at arithmetic?

    No, what the Bill Gates' of the corporate world want in expanding the number of H1B workers is a cheap labor force that doesn't make waves. If you pay them (young Amercans) they will come.

  •  
    4

    omkar

    07/23/08 | Report as spam

    RE: America Trains Foreign PhDs, Canada Employs Them

    I am an immigrant, I would propose a solution here.
    Make 2 divisions in students coming here,
    1) For people who only want to stud here.
    2) For people who want to study and work here.

    and no of h1-b visas alloted by USA students who came here to study and work should not variate more than 5-10% which is acceptable, and unallocated visas this year should be transfered to next year.

    Most importantly increase the job oppotunities here by regulating the goods flow and services flow from china and services flow from India to an extent the work that can be done here.

    People are ready to consume american products of high price than chinease if chinease products are not available.

    By doing all this you would encourage US citizens doing Phd's, their opportunities for jobs with less competition.

  •  
    5

    Rami.katz

    07/23/08 | Report as spam

    Myths and Reality- NO H1b/Green card limit

    I think the article is incomplete, H1B limits do not apply to universities and research institutions - hence any PhD that will be employed by them can and will get a visa.

    Furthermore. in addition to the regular quota of H1Bs there are an additional 20,000 visas for those who received graduate degrees in the US - that quota was met several months after the H1B application process begun.

    Last - this is not a widely used option, but PhDs with an outstanding record can apply directly for a green card.

    The key challenge is that the US offers a conflicting mix of incentives for PhD candidates and PhDs.

    As a candidate the US offers excellent schools, some of the best in the world, and for foreigners the stipend is actually attractive (free education and financial support of $15K-$25K/ PA) while for American's the stipend is very low.

    The compensation for PhDs varies significantly - Faculty positions in liberal arts positions offer $50K-$60K - well below/at par with many Master degrees. Other faculty, in Business for example, start at ~$150K (typically at or above an MBA salary).

    sbmack raises interesting points, but they are not complete - foreign PhDs looking for H1B/Green-card have to be paid the prevailing wages for the region and position (DOL mandatory requirement), hence they are not driving average salaries down - it depends on what employers are willing to pay. Quant PhDs on wall-street can easily start with $200K, it all depends on the individual.

    At the end of the day you choose what provides the biggest benefit to you. Today one can make more/same money with many Master's degrees as with PhDs, so common wisdom suggests - why bother...
    As always, the market will correct itself in the end.

  •  
    6

    sbmack

    07/24/08 | Report as spam

    Prevailing Wages are Meaningless

    The prevailing wages argument is meaningless. Because the very fact that more than a critical mass of foreign workers compete for jobs in a specific technical discipline drives down wages. Because they have no employment flexibility. They either do what they were trained to do or they don't work. An American who doesn't like the salary profile of the same discipline can opt out and do something else. He has a degree in applied mathematics like me, and if the salary stinks he can go to law school. Moreover, if a foreigner needs that job for that green card, he is in a much weaker negotiating position if he negotiates salary at all. So the whole compensation profile is skewed by the very presence of the foreigners.

    And the empirical fact validate that observation. If the wages were sufficiently attractive in the rigorous technical professional tracks, American students would be competing for those jobs. But they are not. Which proves my point.

  •  
    7

    consulmendez

    07/23/08 | Report as spam

    RE: America Trains Foreign PhDs, Canada Employs Them

    There are several answers to your question. First the whole US Immigration System needs to be fully reestructured, not only Visas for Skilled workers. It is not only a problem of the number of available visas, also there is a problem of red tape and long waiting process in many cases. I have to recognize that great progress has been done recently regarding the NAFTA or TN Visas, also de E1 and E2 visas for business people. The tragic backlock is the slow process for family status adjustment, especially for Us permanent residents applying for spouses and their children. The issue of PHD students coming from other countries, at least in the case of Mexicans, many of them are staying in the US either in University research or private corporations. If Mexico is willing to retain them in Mexico a great effort of incentives has to be set up. Not only initial incentives but steady jobs, well paid and with all tools and equipment needed to keep high level scientific and technological research.

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